When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
In the case of the CT6, there should no excuse to build it in China.
Well, in my view, there isn't any excuse.....though GM will undoubtedly cite cost factors, and having the plant in what they perceive as their fastest-growing market. So, I don't see where we have any disagreement there....I think we see eye to eye on that.
The price matters in that it is difficult to build a smaller Focus in the US or Canada than it is in Mexico. In the case of Toyota, moving the Corolla to Mexico allows them to make a higher priced car in Canada.
It may cost a little more, initially, to build a Focus in the U.S. or Canada. But, come pay day, those employees will have more money in their pockets, and be more able to purchase a new Focus coming off the assembly lines for themselves or their families. How many new Focuses will the average Mexican worker be able to buy, coming off that plant?....I wouldn't bet the farm on very many. Auto companies are in business not only to produce vehicles but to sell them. People (including factory employees) without money cannot buy them.
better get used to it. the chinese tidal wave is coming. not sure why japanese, korean, or even german flagships are ok but chinese made ones aren't?
Agreed.
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
Have you looked at a Buick Envision? It is Chinese-made, yet, seemingly like a Swiss-Watch. I went over several different samples with a fine tooth comb (though, admittedly, without a test-drive), and I couldn't find any visible assembly defects like loose parts, uneven gap-widths, clunky door/hood/trunk closings, etc......The only real screw-up, IMO, was putting flat, uncomfortable, poorly-padded, Chinese-size seats in a vehicle that is going to be sold to big Americans.....and the odd new-car smell that was unlike any leather I had seen. But that isn't the plant's fault.....the employees can only assemble what they are given by management.
In fact, since you're an engineer, it would be interesting to get your take on the Envision's build-quality. Except for the seats, I was quite impressed with it.
Have you looked at a Buick Envision? It is Chinese-made, yet, seemingly like a Swiss-Watch. I went over several different samples with a fine tooth comb (though, admittedly, without a test-drive), and I couldn't find any visible assembly defects like loose parts, uneven gap-widths, clunky door/hood/trunk closings, etc......The only real screw-up, IMO, was putting flat, uncomfortable, poorly-padded, Chinese-size seats in a vehicle that is going to be sold to big Americans.....and the odd new-car smell that was unlike any leather I had seen. But that isn't the plant's fault.....the employees can only assemble what they are given by management.
In fact, since you're an engineer, it would be interesting to get your take on the Envision's build-quality. Except for the seats, I was quite impressed with it.
I was generalizing, in large part because 40/50-years ago with the Japanese and 20/30-years ago with the Korean, we did not have traditional, premium Western brands (like Buick) importing Japanese- or Korean-made cars under their own nameplates, as Buick is now doing with the Envision. When we finally see Chinese-made vehicles sold in North America under their Chinese brand names, then the comparison with Toyota, Datsun and Hyundai, Kia can really begin.
I understand why Toyota and now Ford have moved their smaller cars to Mexico, this is because it is too difficult to make the cheaper cars in the US or Canada. But a $75K CT6 hybrid should be able to be built in the USA alongside the gas models.
why does lexus make the rx in canada and not the u.s.? surely they can find equivalent labor in the u.s.? should americans be insulted that the rx is made in canada? i think not.
for some reason if it's china it's ok to be 'outraged'. i don't get it.
Not sure why you think it is OK?
because i believe nations must compete for labor value either through skill, convenience, or cost, or a combination. if the u.s. offers no benefit in terms of those things, corporations are going to build things elsewhere.
should americans not buy flagship apple iphones because they're made in china by foxconn's half million employees there?
why does lexus make the rx in canada and not the u.s.? surely they can find equivalent labor in the u.s.? should americans be insulted that the rx is made in canada?
?
I would be insulted. If I were to pay a premium for a Lexus vehicle, I believe it should come from Japan. Same thing for a Toyota. Especially if it was designed in Japan. Same thing for a German vehcile.
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
I would be insulted. If I were to pay a premium for a Lexus vehicle, I believe it should come from Japan. Same thing for a Toyota. Especially if it was designed in Japan. Same thing for a German vehcile.
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
I agee with you from a strictly idealistic (or nationalistic) point of view.....and for the welfare of the employees who work (or would work) in those plants (and I myself wish it were like that). But, unfortunately, that's not the auto business of today, which is truly global in almost every sense of the word. Bitkahuna pretty much described it when he said it's basically a money issue of nations and plants competing. Companies and corporations are going to build where it is cheapest for them.....often without much concern for their employees.
Probably because they (S.Korea, Japan, Germany) haven't screwed us as much by devaluing their currency or breaking trade-rules the way the Chinese have.
added for clarity.
short memory... japan and s. korea have both had HORRIBLE trade restrictions and massive tariffs in the past. selling ANY cars or electronics in s. korea has been pretty much impossible (got better somewhat recently).
Originally Posted by Sulu
Agreed.
I am old enough that I can remember when our common attitude toward the growing invasion of cheap Japanese cars (and then some years later, the growing invasion of cheap Korean cars) was very similar to our current attitude toward the pending wave of Chinese-built vehicles. We were afraid of the cheap (in both senses of the word -- very low quality and very low price) cars that were coming in waves.
Yet, now we see Japanese cars as high-quality, highly-aspirational cars; Korean cars are no longer seen as low-quality and they are also starting to build aspirational vehicles. The Chinese cars will come and the first ones will be cheap (low quality and low price) but they will get better, and in 10 to 15 years, we will start to see them as stylish, relatively high quality cars. Our experience with Korean cars reflects our experience with Japanese cars, and our experience with Chinese cars will reflect our experience with Korean cars.
thanks for agreeing and awesome post.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I would be insulted. If I were to pay a premium for a Lexus vehicle, I believe it should come from Japan. Same thing for a Toyota. Especially if it was designed in Japan. Same thing for a German vehcile.
wow, respectfully that's a very old-fashioned viewpoint. so as a canadian you wouldn't buy a canadian made RX?
But it is not ok IMO for a Cadillac to be built in China when they could make it in the USA.
gm has offered australian made holdens, german made opels. ford has offered british and german made fords. bmw bought rolls royce, vw bought bentley (2 epic brands from my birth country).
bottom line, cars are made and sold everywhere. toyota makes cars all over the world also. the lexus es is or is about to be built at toyota's u.s. factory. i doubt u.s. consumers will care.
you're certainly entitled to choose only the toyotas and lexus models designed and built in japan though!
I would be insulted. If I were to pay a premium for a Lexus vehicle, I believe it should come from Japan. Same thing for a Toyota. Especially if it was designed in Japan. Same thing for a German vehcile.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
wow, respectfully that's a very old-fashioned viewpoint. so as a canadian you wouldn't buy a canadian made RX?
Just for the record... IIRC, Jill drives a (North American-made -- Canadian-made if bought in Canada, American-made if bought in the USA) Toyota Corolla.
Just for the record... IIRC, Jill drives a (North American-made -- Canadian-made if bought in Canada, American-made if bought in the USA) Toyota Corolla.
So you're saying we should change Jill's SN to ToyROLAJil
Just for the record... IIRC, Jill drives a (North American-made -- Canadian-made if bought in Canada, American-made if bought in the USA) Toyota Corolla.
I think the main thing I have with a Chinese made car is the Chinese culture in general and their complete disregard for copyright and patent laws. In traditional Chinese culture, if you have a great product, a great service, a great movie, you make a copy of it to show how great it is. So you have all kinds of stupid western knockoffs like this:
Bootleg movies
Knockoff cars
The only cars worth a crap that are built in China come from major Japanese, Korean, European or American Manufacturers. The independent Chinese made cars are just horrible pieces of structurally unsafe crap compared to the major names in the industry.
That, in a nutshell is why I don't like Chinese made cars. The people would much rather make a really crappy copy than try and innovate.
I was in Chantilly today on business and drove a few cars, I decided I would have another look at the CT6, this time focusing on seeing what I could get for what I feel this car is worth, which is mid $60s. Take the TT engine out of the equation, and the platinum trim because IMHO it just elevates this car to a place where its just really not a value and doesn't belong. Mid $70s buys you an LS460, a Jaguar XJ, an Audi A8...all vehicles in a different league, and a TT car is mid $70s sparsely optioned, well optioned they are $80k solid. Its not an $80k car IMHO.
If I as a buyer were going to buy a CT6 instead of staying in a flagship car like my LS, I would want to save money, so I figured that $65k was about where I would want to be tops.
As luck would have it, they had a nice one there at the dealer. It was a Moonstone on Cinnamon 3.6L AWD, this was a Premium Luxury car so this had the virtual gauges which is a must. No adaptive cruise or anything like that, no Panaray audio, no active chassis control. Sticker $66k, perfect.
Spent some time with the car and took it on a good test drive, and looking at it as an example of something that I would pay $66k for, meaning I would be in an A6 or a loaded GS or a well optioned 5 series, or an E Class lowly optioned with a 4cyl I came away feeling more positive about the car than I did when I originally looked at it. Its a great looking car, really it is especially in the Moonstone. I like the Cinnamon interior actually, although its a shame it only comes with the carbon fiber trim. I would want wood. The car rides really well, not as well as the LS but very solid and refined, very quiet. The 3.6L is smooth and powerful enough. Base Bose audio is easily better than the base audio in my LS. The latest iteration of CUE works well.
I came away from it looking at it a couple different ways:
1. Its $14,000 cheaper than my LS460.
2. Assuming the next LS goes all LWB like everybody else has at this point but Jaguar (A8 is LWB only too if you don't get the S8), a new gen AWD LS lowly optioned is going to be $85k easy, so now its $19,000 cheaper than that and really anything else in that segment
3. It has an American swagger about it that I personally like. Its not going to be ostentatious like a Jag XJ which would be the remaining value flagship player.
4. Inside it is not as nicely finished as the LS, or any of those flagship cars, but at that price savings thats something you can justify. When its a loaded $80k Platinum it isn't, and many of the quality issues remain on that model.
Looking at it this way, the car has a lot of appeal...would I next time go to a car like the one I drove to save ~$15-20k or ~ $300/mo in a lease payment? Yeah...I seriously might. Would I rather have this car than a loaded GS, a well optioned 535, a loaded A6, or a sparsely optioned E300...yeah...yeah I would.
09-17-16, 03:46 PM
