Sway bar for SC 400
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,296
Likes: 603
From: Southwest
Sway bar for SC 400
1st let me start out w saying I know nothing about suspensions and I didn't understand much about "which bar 22 or 24"
I have a 92 SC 400 w a standard suspension that never has handled well in taking curves (lean too much), hasn't been much of a problem here in the flatlands, but I will be moving to a place more in the mountains and would like to know what would help in taking curves better.
I'm not into changing my suspension at this time, having rebuilt it once already, and am not into putting a lot of money into my almost 30 yr old car, although it still runs, pretty much like a Rolex.
I'm looking to handle better in curves and getting the most bang for the Buck
Any Brilliant suggested very welcome.
Really, just tell me what you suggest, in easy terms I can understand and its costs
I appreciate this forum for all the help I have gotten in keeping another Great SC on the road
Thank you_____Barbary
I juiced up the pic a little
I have a 92 SC 400 w a standard suspension that never has handled well in taking curves (lean too much), hasn't been much of a problem here in the flatlands, but I will be moving to a place more in the mountains and would like to know what would help in taking curves better.
I'm not into changing my suspension at this time, having rebuilt it once already, and am not into putting a lot of money into my almost 30 yr old car, although it still runs, pretty much like a Rolex.
I'm looking to handle better in curves and getting the most bang for the Buck
Any Brilliant suggested very welcome.
Really, just tell me what you suggest, in easy terms I can understand and its costs
I appreciate this forum for all the help I have gotten in keeping another Great SC on the road
Thank you_____Barbary
I juiced up the pic a little
Barbary, I understand your wish to make your SC400 handle better in the turns, especially on those California mountain roads. I did a lot of driving in the SoCal and NorCal mountains with my initially stock SC300 and I knew I wanted to tighten up this big car to make it handle far better than stock (which to me was a bit like a sporty hovercraft from the factory).
The thing is you will get the best results from a combination of modifications to your suspension. I am not even talking about a setup you would take to a racetrack (although you could I guess but it would still be "street" oriented).
The first thing is your wheels and tires. These cars respond better to a slightly staggered wheel setup (slightly wider in the rear than in the front). Tires... well, let's leave that for another post and just focus on the suspension.
Next, your shocks/springs do matter. You said you had already serviced your suspension. What shock/spring combination or coil-over are you running currently?
I've been running a do-it-yourself suspension for the Supra MKIV and SC called "Gixxer Drew". This consists of specific Bilstein AK1242 and AK1243 shocks that are very similar to what Toyota sold as a TRD accessory for the Supra MKIV in the late 90's. Those are combined with Hypercoil springs in a 600lb front and 325lb rear matching. However I would now recommend those same brand springs in 500lb front and 250lb rear for a normal street car. It is not very capable of lowering but it has been a very good bang for the buck setup. And these shocks are fully rebuildable by Bilstein if the need ever arises. Cost was about $1100-$1200 for me in 2011. The rest of the kit parts are listed in a big thread on SupraForums.
There are also many "drop in" coil over kits by BC Racing, Fortune Auto, Tein, etc. but for a decent one you may have to spend around $1800-$2000 to start.
^^ A well designed street oriented aftermarket suspension with good valving and good spring rates (ie: not a super stiff race car suspension) will contribute to less roll in the corners, better control under braking and overall better feedback and control over uneven surfaces.
Next, sway bars. Yes, your SC can benefit from an upgrade. There are a couple of ways to go about it.
Method #1: get a stock SC style aftermarket sway bar from Daizen Sport Tuning (TM Engineering)... if you can find any for sale online or if you happen to catch them when their business is in operation (ALWAYS call or email Daizen or TM Engineering first before placing and order with them to verify they have what you need in stock at that time).
Or... get a similar sway bar kit from Whiteline, another suspension parts company.
Those above sway bars mount to the stock SC300/400 sway bar installation points on the chassis.
Method #2: Go with any Supra MKIV style rear sway bar kit. For this you will need to acquire OEM Supra MKIV rear subframe mounts or aftermarket replicas of those mounts, swap your SC subframe mounts out and the Supra MKIV style subframe mounts in.
Then... you can install a Supra MKIV rear sway bar in your SC. 22mm OEM or 23mm aftermarket diameter versions are preferable for a street SC and all you need. Larger MKIV Supra rear swaybars also exist but you do not need what they offer in your case. I believe Supra MKIV rear swaybar end links are also needed but I'm not 100% certain.
The cheapest option (or it was the cheapest and maybe still is?) would be to go on SupraForums and hopefully find a 1993.5-1996 Supra MKIV Turbo rear sway bar for sale. Those are 22mm. You can also use an OEM Supra MKIV 20mm rear sway bar but it will be slightly less aggressive.
What I have used in my daily driven SC300 for years now has been the MKIV Supra 22mm rear sway bar. And I used this sway bar (and shock and spring combination) on many SoCal and NorCal mountain roads.
The rear sway bar swap will additionally reduce roll and re-balance how the front end and tail of the car cooperate with each other. I also combined this with a variation of the Supra MKIV "Lance Alignment" (look it up on Google). But initially I just went with a variation of the OEM MKIV Supra Turbo alignment settings. They are similar alignment settings and both tend to emphasize a staggered wheel and tire setup while still allowing some predictable understeer at the front wheels.
With the stock SC alignment settings on these modifications I felt the car was a little too tail happy, so changing to different alignment settings calmed this down and still allowed me to take advantage of the improved and flatter handling my suspension modifications now allowed me.
Later I also swapped in an OEM Supra Turbo front sway bar as well and in fact it did subtly compliment and change the overall handling balance a bit in a good way but I drove for years on the stock SC front sway bar with the OEM Supra Turbo 22mm rear sway bar and the handling was fine. In an SC400 you can only upgrade to the rear Supra sway bar.
To note: "What is so special about this Supra rear sway bar that mounts differently from the SC rear sway bar?"
Simple. The 22mm Supra rear sway bar anchors its load points onto the rear suspension subframe of the SC (or MKIV Supra) which distributes the load forces differently. It is also 2mm larger in diameter and of a more solid construction than the SC rear sway bar. It has different bends and less of them in a less exaggerated shape.
The SC rear sway bar is 20mm diameter, has a slight bit more "give" than the Supra rear sway bar and its shape is a little more elaborate which makes it less aggressive and more suited to a very relaxed "luxury" feel that will not easily get the tail stepping out on you. The center of the stock SC sway bar, unlike the Supra rear sway bar, anchors to the trunk floor. This is not ideal from a sports GT / light race perspective.
Any SC300/400 specific aftermarket rear sway bar will bolt to the same stock mounting locations as a stock SC rear sway bar... BUT... it will be a thicker diameter bar and will have less "give" to it. So in those use cases the load forces are not distributed differently from stock... but those loads are met with a more rigid bar which DOES have the effect of stiffening up the rear end of the chassis a bit anyway.
Rear sway bar changes are significant but subtle modifications to make to your SC. And now you know the two different types of sway bar setups you can use: "stock style" or "Supra MKIV" style. I prefer the latter but both will work slightly differently while achieving degrees of the same net effect on handling improvement.
The final thing that helps an SC in the handling department after it corners flatter is a 1.5-way limited slip differential (ie: a Torsen LSD from a Supra MKIV) or an aftermarket limited slip (usually a 2-way) but that is an expensive investment. Worthwhile for sure but expensive.
An LSD will not make the car handle flatter but rather it improves the ability to power through turns and keep power going to not just the wheel with the least amount of grip (standard, open differential) but also the wheel with the most grip. And LSD more evenly distributes torque between the wheels under power, basically.
...
The things you should focus on right now:
1) Whether or not your SC's current suspension (ie: spring & shock combo or the current coilover setup) is contributing to the tendency to roll too much
2) Choose one of the two routes to upgrading the rear sway bar and make that modification to improve the flatness in the corners just a bit. If you choose an SC300/400 specific kit you should be able to upgrade the rear AND front swaybars on your SC400. But just the rear can make a difference on its own.
3) As an addendum, especially if you plan to do spirited mountain driving, consider upgrading the front brakes to 1995-2000 LS400 front calipers. It will improve braking confidence dramatically, improve overall safety and it is 100% compatible with your stock ABS system. Those brakes should have been standard equipment on ALL SC's.
The thing is you will get the best results from a combination of modifications to your suspension. I am not even talking about a setup you would take to a racetrack (although you could I guess but it would still be "street" oriented).
The first thing is your wheels and tires. These cars respond better to a slightly staggered wheel setup (slightly wider in the rear than in the front). Tires... well, let's leave that for another post and just focus on the suspension.
Next, your shocks/springs do matter. You said you had already serviced your suspension. What shock/spring combination or coil-over are you running currently?
I've been running a do-it-yourself suspension for the Supra MKIV and SC called "Gixxer Drew". This consists of specific Bilstein AK1242 and AK1243 shocks that are very similar to what Toyota sold as a TRD accessory for the Supra MKIV in the late 90's. Those are combined with Hypercoil springs in a 600lb front and 325lb rear matching. However I would now recommend those same brand springs in 500lb front and 250lb rear for a normal street car. It is not very capable of lowering but it has been a very good bang for the buck setup. And these shocks are fully rebuildable by Bilstein if the need ever arises. Cost was about $1100-$1200 for me in 2011. The rest of the kit parts are listed in a big thread on SupraForums.
There are also many "drop in" coil over kits by BC Racing, Fortune Auto, Tein, etc. but for a decent one you may have to spend around $1800-$2000 to start.
^^ A well designed street oriented aftermarket suspension with good valving and good spring rates (ie: not a super stiff race car suspension) will contribute to less roll in the corners, better control under braking and overall better feedback and control over uneven surfaces.
Next, sway bars. Yes, your SC can benefit from an upgrade. There are a couple of ways to go about it.
Method #1: get a stock SC style aftermarket sway bar from Daizen Sport Tuning (TM Engineering)... if you can find any for sale online or if you happen to catch them when their business is in operation (ALWAYS call or email Daizen or TM Engineering first before placing and order with them to verify they have what you need in stock at that time).
Or... get a similar sway bar kit from Whiteline, another suspension parts company.
Those above sway bars mount to the stock SC300/400 sway bar installation points on the chassis.
Method #2: Go with any Supra MKIV style rear sway bar kit. For this you will need to acquire OEM Supra MKIV rear subframe mounts or aftermarket replicas of those mounts, swap your SC subframe mounts out and the Supra MKIV style subframe mounts in.
Then... you can install a Supra MKIV rear sway bar in your SC. 22mm OEM or 23mm aftermarket diameter versions are preferable for a street SC and all you need. Larger MKIV Supra rear swaybars also exist but you do not need what they offer in your case. I believe Supra MKIV rear swaybar end links are also needed but I'm not 100% certain.
The cheapest option (or it was the cheapest and maybe still is?) would be to go on SupraForums and hopefully find a 1993.5-1996 Supra MKIV Turbo rear sway bar for sale. Those are 22mm. You can also use an OEM Supra MKIV 20mm rear sway bar but it will be slightly less aggressive.
What I have used in my daily driven SC300 for years now has been the MKIV Supra 22mm rear sway bar. And I used this sway bar (and shock and spring combination) on many SoCal and NorCal mountain roads.
The rear sway bar swap will additionally reduce roll and re-balance how the front end and tail of the car cooperate with each other. I also combined this with a variation of the Supra MKIV "Lance Alignment" (look it up on Google). But initially I just went with a variation of the OEM MKIV Supra Turbo alignment settings. They are similar alignment settings and both tend to emphasize a staggered wheel and tire setup while still allowing some predictable understeer at the front wheels.
With the stock SC alignment settings on these modifications I felt the car was a little too tail happy, so changing to different alignment settings calmed this down and still allowed me to take advantage of the improved and flatter handling my suspension modifications now allowed me.
Later I also swapped in an OEM Supra Turbo front sway bar as well and in fact it did subtly compliment and change the overall handling balance a bit in a good way but I drove for years on the stock SC front sway bar with the OEM Supra Turbo 22mm rear sway bar and the handling was fine. In an SC400 you can only upgrade to the rear Supra sway bar.
To note: "What is so special about this Supra rear sway bar that mounts differently from the SC rear sway bar?"
Simple. The 22mm Supra rear sway bar anchors its load points onto the rear suspension subframe of the SC (or MKIV Supra) which distributes the load forces differently. It is also 2mm larger in diameter and of a more solid construction than the SC rear sway bar. It has different bends and less of them in a less exaggerated shape.
The SC rear sway bar is 20mm diameter, has a slight bit more "give" than the Supra rear sway bar and its shape is a little more elaborate which makes it less aggressive and more suited to a very relaxed "luxury" feel that will not easily get the tail stepping out on you. The center of the stock SC sway bar, unlike the Supra rear sway bar, anchors to the trunk floor. This is not ideal from a sports GT / light race perspective.
Any SC300/400 specific aftermarket rear sway bar will bolt to the same stock mounting locations as a stock SC rear sway bar... BUT... it will be a thicker diameter bar and will have less "give" to it. So in those use cases the load forces are not distributed differently from stock... but those loads are met with a more rigid bar which DOES have the effect of stiffening up the rear end of the chassis a bit anyway.
Rear sway bar changes are significant but subtle modifications to make to your SC. And now you know the two different types of sway bar setups you can use: "stock style" or "Supra MKIV" style. I prefer the latter but both will work slightly differently while achieving degrees of the same net effect on handling improvement.
The final thing that helps an SC in the handling department after it corners flatter is a 1.5-way limited slip differential (ie: a Torsen LSD from a Supra MKIV) or an aftermarket limited slip (usually a 2-way) but that is an expensive investment. Worthwhile for sure but expensive.
An LSD will not make the car handle flatter but rather it improves the ability to power through turns and keep power going to not just the wheel with the least amount of grip (standard, open differential) but also the wheel with the most grip. And LSD more evenly distributes torque between the wheels under power, basically.
...
The things you should focus on right now:
1) Whether or not your SC's current suspension (ie: spring & shock combo or the current coilover setup) is contributing to the tendency to roll too much
2) Choose one of the two routes to upgrading the rear sway bar and make that modification to improve the flatness in the corners just a bit. If you choose an SC300/400 specific kit you should be able to upgrade the rear AND front swaybars on your SC400. But just the rear can make a difference on its own.
3) As an addendum, especially if you plan to do spirited mountain driving, consider upgrading the front brakes to 1995-2000 LS400 front calipers. It will improve braking confidence dramatically, improve overall safety and it is 100% compatible with your stock ABS system. Those brakes should have been standard equipment on ALL SC's.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,296
Likes: 603
From: Southwest
Wow Kahn, This has to be the Definitive research on sway bars and SC suspensions. Sure is thorough and understandable even to me. Thank you so much
I'm going to study this and when I get where I'm going I will start to put into action these steps and thereby see how far I have to go to satisfy the need
Long Live "the Purple Bullet"!💜
I'm going to study this and when I get where I'm going I will start to put into action these steps and thereby see how far I have to go to satisfy the need
Long Live "the Purple Bullet"!💜
Thank you for a very informative write up because I have a spare set of front and rear sway bar from my Supra TT when I upgraded to TRD. I just purchased 99 Lexus SC 300 and want to swap to the Supra TT. Based on the write, the front is pretty straight forward, but the rear need Supra rear subframe mount. I know that I need to used the Supra rear subframe mount but is that the same for the front also or I can used the existing SC front mount. Thanks
Thank you. That’s good to know. I need to do this upgrade because the SC ride is too soft for my taste. While I’m at it, I will swap my stock Supra suspension also. I’ve heard that it’s a straight forward swap and the result is that with the stock suspensions is a bit lower than the stock SC.
Kahn have you considered making a new thread and basically fishing out your "Let me explain everything" type posts over the various different threads and making it into a long encyclopedia type thread? It might save you some typing in the future lol
On a more serious note. Could you tell me more about your alignment experience. I'm in a similar situation with regards to the car being tailhappy after doing the coils and im curious what you did to correct your alignment and if you used any aftermarket adjustable arms. Feel free to PM me so we don't hijack OP's thread or just post here for extra info
On a more serious note. Could you tell me more about your alignment experience. I'm in a similar situation with regards to the car being tailhappy after doing the coils and im curious what you did to correct your alignment and if you used any aftermarket adjustable arms. Feel free to PM me so we don't hijack OP's thread or just post here for extra info
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I just received four swaybars bushing (2 front 2 rear) for MKIV swaybar. Sadly, it's the very last 4 out there. The 2 front look pretty new, but the 2 rear look like it's been sitting there in the warehouse for the last twenty-something year. I guessed no MKIV owner buy factory bushing since most swap out for TRD swaybars or aftermarket one. I have the existing MKIV bushing with very low miles but since I'm swapping it, might as well get a brand new one for piece of mind. Anyhow, I want to know if I need rear swaybar end links also. KahnBB6 stated, "I believe Supra MKIV rear swaybar end links are also needed but I'm not 100% certain." Anyone has done this mod, please verify for me. Thank you all in advance and is there anything else I need to know would be very appreciated. I was told that I can used any "white grease" for the bushing so the swaybars can move easily. Is there any particular type or brand recommend or any would be fine. Thanks
For swaybar endlinks I went straight to the aftermarket. I have Battleversion. I'm lowered but not slammed, and aftermarket adjustable endlinks are REQUIRED on this cars if you're anything lower than stock height
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