I'm not here to argue with you gerrb. Nobody is arguing the Grannas is of the highest quality. Where you and me differ is that I think you've determined the Collins offering to be of sub-standard/poor quality, where I see it as being a soild and proven (and continuously improving) design. The "Cadillac" or the "Chevy", both have their place in the world. But I think implying that anyone who does not choose the Cadillac has a complete disregard for quality is an unfair conclusion.

This is my last reply on this topic as I'm not here to argue or be involved in any sort of heated internet debate. I'm too old and tired for that. To each their own, and as long as folks do their homework and come to an educated conclusion on their setups based on what works out in their personal situation, I can respect that.

 

Let me correct some things here . I am not bashing the Collins Solutions . Neither I am saying people SHOULD buy a cadillac instead of a chevy. I am laying out the pros and cons of both so people can be better informed to make a decision. On top of it I am trying to share experience so people are more informed and not wonder later and regret their decision . For some even $4k can be a lot of money . Just like you said , people have to do their research. But they can't make an informed decision if they don't read first hand experiences, good or bad. I am speaking based on experience for the Dual Disks Setups for which I have just helped installed . Have you had a better experience with Dual Disks on the Collins Solution using the Power Train Tech or Quarter Master dual clutches ? Please do let us know here , maybe we are doing something not right that is why the damn dual disks setup is so noisy like I am in a tractor and we here can all be informed of such good experience with the dual disks for a 2JZ on a CD009. I am not making an unfair conclusion. I am laying out an experience here. Will wait to hear your good experience so we can correct the wrong we are doing and make the driving experience with the CD009 on a dual clutch a better one. It will help a lot of people in their decision too. You don't want them only reading bad experiences do you ? If only the bad experience is said then it will look like it is bashing which was not meant to be. So I urge you to say your good experience on dual clutch disks with the CD009 on a 2JZ. You probably had bettter experience. Good for you . At least we can tell there are good and bad experiences and there is something we are doing not right on our end that is why ours is like riding in a tractor and people on the other car beside us looks at us as though our car is falling apart even if it is a brand new transmission.

We can all keep quiet and let people here experience the hard and expensive way which for me is not right . If you honestly experience one thing , say so to help others make an informed decision which is what the forums are for...helping others. Learning from the good and bad experiences of others is what the forum is all about .

 

Both of you have valid points. For me the CD009 is attractive price wise, but first issue is the potential for the noise and also the chatter at idle that people are talking about on the 350z. My car makes enough noises its not supposed to as it is, let alone paying for something new that isn't smooth as butter. Second while the shifter solution works, its not the most ideal solution feel wise still, maybe going with an aftermarket shifter someone has made will solve that but not entirely sure it will be as good as the other. The T56 is pricey but seems to be worth it if I can spring for it, it is worth more than my SC also which is hard to swallow at first lol, but if I can get over that part it seems like the best alternative to the V160, I figure I can piece parts together and get it done for less but that will also take a little more time and effort which is probably what I would do. Those JDM 2jzgte swaps with the V161 are looking more tempting the whole thing is like 10k with a gte but then I wonder about the condition of that used V161 and it makes me not want to do that.

At least we have lots of choices now, which is alot better than before. Its kind of making things difficult to say the least lol, its not as simple as w58 or r154 or v160 anymore.
Maybe one can convince clutch masters to make a kit for the 2JZ to Cd009, although I am sill not sure if the spacing works out that well.

 

Speaking of which, how is the shifter feel of the TR6060 arrangement? Shifter is still one of the drawbacks of the CD009 in my opinion.

 

I figured it was as good as it is stock, but I have no experience with it.. that's a very good question will have to look into it, I think alot of cars have to use the Sikky shifter setup so there should be lots of info on it, I think there are less expensive options that are basically the same also.

 

Check Sikky dot com for the shifter relocation .Go Online Shop , then Additional Performance Parts , then Shifter Relocation kits. I don't mean to take away sales from Joel. He seems to be a very nice guy. But for people looking for cheaper places to find stuff , check that website for the shifter relocation. Before I decided to have a new Magnum built for +900 ft.lbs of torque , I have driven a domestic making 800ftlbs of torque . I can't even feel it is an aftermarket transmission with a relocated shifter. That was my last test , I had to drive a car before I go with that setup. I wasn't gonna waste my hard earned money on something I haven't tried . Joel's transmissions are done by Tick Performance too. You can check their website if you want more power .

Let me inform everyone , the T56 is different from the TR6060 and both are different from the Magnum. They are all from Tremec. But they have been accustomed to call the Magnum .... T56 Magnum. The three are different transmissions. The Magnum is rated with the highest torque specs at 700 ft.lbs at stock form ,that is why it is used for aftermarket applications on the vettes , vipers , mustangs and so on. So you have to get the Tremec Magnum. You also have two options on gearing, the close ratio 2.66 or the 2.97. IF yours is more of a street car and want good traction , go for the 2.66 . Even their shifter relocations are not all the same. They are different for whatever car you install the T56 , TR6060 or Magnum. But Sikky seems to have perfected a stock shifter feel.The Magnum you can get for $3035 in some well known sites.

The drivetrains I have on my SCs are probably 15 times more than I paid for the SCs themselves. But it is what we put in them that makes them special. Otherwise , they will just be like the same ordinary cars out there.

You are right ,damn 2jzgte V161 swaps are now $10k . But even then , if you have the V161 , parts for rebuilds are few and hard to find. Discontinued trans and parts is what skyrocketed their prices aside from the real reason that they are really so robust that they can hold their own.

It is all about money making .. if Clutch Masters would see how many are gonna buy their product maybe one day they will make a clutch fit for the 2JZ and CD009 without all those adapter / parts put together which I believe is one of the culprit right now for bad experiences.

 

Yeah we will just have to wait and see where the market goes with these swaps, it would be nice to see a couple more places making stuff specific to each of these swaps.

Went to the local Cars and Coffee meet at Vehicle Vault last weekend, used to take the SC but took the Vette this time since I got it driving good again.
The green color is called "Brands Hatch Green", and apparently this Cobra has the exact same color.. neither one of us could find a difference lol, we both got a pretty good kick out of it I had parked next to him by chance and turned out to be matching



Stingray's chillin


Oh and its always nice when a Mclaren shows up, pure awesomenessity


You guys know me well enough now to know I need to modify everything... and I need bass in my life, its not optional.
Test fitted a mount I made for a 10" dual coil kicker (same one I have in the SC) in the spare tire Jack compartment... apparently mine did not come with one.
I will get one of those small bottle jacks and stick it in the middle compartment, the compartment on the far right is the battery box one which will stay as a battery box.


Will wrap it in black vinyl felt stuff and get a cover for the speaker so I can still slide my T-top case in that area.
Space for the T tops is the whole reason I wanted to drop it in there versus a box that sits in the hatch area.

 

Decent sound system is a definite must!

 

That's well into it so far! No, it won't likely end anytime soon. You're just getting started on the Vette Overhauling the steering system the way you did is what piques my interest the most. I've heard they weren't the best handlers from the factory. Is it a night and day difference after installing the Borgeson kit?

Finally seeing a picture of it, it's a beautiful Vette! The green color is nice and understated on that model.

Regarding the transmission discussion over the last couple of pages, I have also come to the conclusion that the next project car transmission I'll get is a Tremec T-56 Magnum. It is expensive especially when adapted to the 2JZ engine but its torque rating is astronomical and there is no shortage of parts support. I also have to agree with wanting a robust transmission to handle internal wear and NVH well. However I'd venture a guess that the CD009 is at least a comparable solution alternative to what my built R154 is capable of when not pushed to its limit. That and R154's were designed in 1986. I feel like I got into a 90% direct swap R154 solution just before it got more difficult to find every single original part. If I were doing it all over now and full R154 swaps are pricier than they were in 2013 I would probably consider the AR5... mostly for cost effectiveness. However I'm also not looking to go for serious high horsepower with my mild build so in terms of reliability and stress on the components I'm not worried about breaking anything by maxing out at no more than 400whp. But admittedly a bolt-in fit as close to the Japanese market Soarer (down to the trans tunnel gaskets for the old style shifter) was what I was interested in more than the best potential it could give me.

If I were going to the power levels you guys are and that was the plan from the start I'd not only be building a different engine but I'd plan ahead for a T-56 Magnum from the getgo. It's new technology and just a great gearbox. Actually I have something very different than a 2JZ in mind for a Magnum 6-speed and I probably would get it built to handle a constant 900ft-lbs just as a safety measure. For me that's a way off. Right now one car project is all I can handle

As far as drivetrains for our cars exceeding the original used cost of the cars themselves... I think that describes almost every common project car imaginable. Well... not MKIV's and probably not Ali's '71 Corvette either but *most* project cars

 

This just confirms what we are currently experiencing on the two cars with dual disks clutch on the CD009 . One has a brand new transmission and the other used . The dual disks clutches are of different brands. Was it the transmission , I doubt cause one was brand new. Was it the clutches , I don't know cause they are of different brands . One was sent one brand of clutch and the other was sent another brand. Why ? I don't know. On Collins website he doesn't tell you on the pull down menu what brand of clutch he will send to you . That is a concern to me .. you are paying for something you don't even know what you are getting and be stucked with it eventually even if it is junk . I suspect that the problem is a combination of things ..... clutch design and adaptation kit ... I really don't know . The thing is we have two cars in which the owners nor I are taking for a 100 mile cruise with stop and go again because of the NVH , specifically the Noise is unbearable after a while if you have a very quiet exhaust.

It ain't a funny experience when you install and take out a transmission several times in a two week period trying to find out the problem especially when the car is just on jack stands. My buddies had the adapters that you don't cut the CD009 bellhousing so space is very limited with those big transmissions. It was a lot easier pulling the whole engine and transmission just to work on the transmission. They didn't want to go with the adapter where you cut the transmission bellhousing because they were thinking they will have less possible buyers on the transmissions if they eventually want to let go of them. After having told one of them that I am not helping him take the transmission out again until he talked to Collins about this noise problem , he told me , Collins knew the associated NVH problem with dual clutch kits. I simply said huh ? Now you are stucked with a car that has a $5000+ 6speed swap that irritates you every time you drive it. .

Before somebody else says and accuses me of an unfair conclusion let me remind every one that THIS IS A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE on dual clutches with the CD009 and not something said out of nowhere. Not unless someone else show proof that they have no such problem with a personal experience rather than he said / she said , I don't see it unfair to say one's experience especially if it is experienced in not only one car but two , by other people on a 350z site as Ali have mentioned and now Collins acknowledging the drawback of the dual clutches he had sent customers. Well, I remember someone saying on LoveSC's thread , he has a single and he has some marbles in can noises too that is irritating . So is it only for dual clutches ? That doesn't seems to be the case. To spend over $5000 on the setup with a brand new CD009 , not even counting on the labor of installing and taking out the whole engine and transmission numerous times in a two week period, and get a terrible driving experience out of it is for me ridiculous and not an acceptable solution for a 6 speed swap. I don't have any beef with Collins cause I never dealt with them so this is not to bash the company. I just want people to know of what possibly to expect with a CD009 swap using the adapter with the auto flexplate for your starter, spacer to make the clutch kit reach the engine crank or breach the gap between them and the dual clutches that has button flywheels that were sent to two of my friends.

Seeing that the Tremec (T56) Magnum is the transmission used by high end built domestic production cars , which by the way being V8s are torque monsters , is a good sign that it is a robust transmission. And as you said , it has really great local support .

Is it expensive ? We won't even probably be in this conversation if not for the V160 being discontinued , both transmission and many of its parts. A second hand V160 6speed on ebay now is $7500 . Brand new , you will be lucky if you find one for sale. Exactly the reason I am hoarding the two I bought from a dealership before they were discontinued as reserve for my 5 cars with V160 and am looking at the Tremec Magnum for an auto to 6speed swap in one of my SC . A Tremec Magnum transmission , bellhousing and shifter meant for our MKIV / SC , Those , ALL BRAND NEW , is around $4500 which is a lot lower compared to a $7500 second hand V160. On paper, the Tremec Magnum is also rated double the torque (ft.lbs ) specs of the V160. Comparing it to a brand new CD009 that you need an adaptation kit to fit it on a 2JZ plus a sloppy shifter , which probably will put you at $3000, yes it is $1500 more expensive . For all the other parts like clutch and driveshaft .. these would be same provided they are of the same brand or rather quality. You get what you pay for as they used to say.

But these two transmissions are of different league ... Torque specs wise (350 for CD009 / 700 for Magnum) , One is used on high end built domestics like vettes , viper , mustang and others and the other is used on the 350z , 370z and 300rwhp / ft.lbs imported cars, One has ease of install (drop in just like the V160) and the other you all know the things needed to be done to get it installed depending of what adapter you get , driving experience .. I won't even go into that since I have said my experiences on the dual kits, Availability and reliability of dual or triple clutches ... one you know what you are getting , the other you don't so you are stucked with whatever brand you are sent, One has been proven in a 1700rwhp setup whose owner had been putting to abuse his setups on the drag strip which means a lot of testing and the other haven't been really tested on a high 2JZ application. The performance world is small world, a car with a good setup will be known so if truly there is a high hp 2JZ application with the CD009 out there , it would have been known. Don't you think so ? Surely these providers will brag about it to promote their products associated with the CD009 . I keep on hearing people saying Collins has some .. where they at ?

Considering now the specs and what not , is the Tremec Magnum worth the extra cost .. You be the judge , I just laid out the picture for both transmissions so many would be informed and be able to make their own decision. Some people who has the Collins setup might say I am biased. Please do correct me , tell me what wrong have I said on the descriptions I have mentioned above and I will gladly correct myself. Don't just accuse me of unfair conclusions just because you want to promote your own. Let us discuss rationally backing our claims with proofs. That is the only way to learn.

I wish I see real experience proof that the CD009 is really a better alternative than the old R154 since the latter is getting expensive and hard to find too . Am with you when you say a bolt in or drop in solution for our MKIVs / SCs provides the ease for install , uninstall and maintenance .

 

350z transmissions are known to be noisy at idle when any sort of reduced mass flywheel/clutch system is in place. Single or multi disc. I had it with my JWT arrangement. This is a very well known and searchable topic, especially if you head over to the Z boards. Other than it being a noise, I have never heard anyone say that it is actually a problem that negatively effects the mechanics. I can only speak for my experience and a friends, both of us on single disc arrangements, both of us have the 'noise' at idle.

 

Kahn, thanks for the kind words, I always thought I wanted a yellow or blue one but after having the hatch green, I simply love it, its less common and amazing in person. Everyone compliments it unlike hte white one I was parked next to.
Yes the Borgeson kit made a night and day difference, more than that even if its possible, Ill give you a run down of the system.
The original vette design has a steering box with an external power assist mounted on the tie rod, the box has a drag link that connects to the tie rod that connects both wheels... now the original power steering was actully mounted to the end of the tie rod and has a hydraulic ram that looks like a stabilizer shock (think pickup truck), and it pushes on the tie rod left or right to give power steering. Since the power steering is separate from the box, the PS ram need to be adjusted to center constantly or it will randomly jerk the car left and right, and has been known to cause crashes, also the fact that its all seperate means there are 2 high pressure hoses and 2 return lines, and they go to the ram which is constantly moving. the original system requires overhaul every 10k miles, and the lines leak just as often. Not only was my steering box loose and in need of a rebuild, the PS was disconnected cause i was told it would Jerk herd to the right, which means it was out of adjustment, oh and it was leaking. also when I would brake hard the car would shoot to the right in a seriously scary fashion. This is part of why I got a good deal on it but I knew I could fix all of this easily.

pic of the infamous power steering ram POS






Now the Borgeson kit is a newer type of box where the steering box and power steering is integrated. you remove the old PS ram, all the old lines leaving just the tie rod and yuo get a new solid end link in the kit which replaces the ram, and simply run 2 lines from the pump to the steering box like a normal vehicle, mounts with the same mounting hole and was easier cause mine was originally a PS car. the reservoir is on top of the pump on the SBC so no hoses for that. The Borgeson box mounts in the original spot, but its larger so its a bit tricky to get in. you have to collapse the steering shaft some cause the box is longer, you use a hammer to tap it in (simple stuff in '71). after a lot of fiddling and connecting the drag link back to the tie rod, there is ZERO play, and the car has super power steering, I can do u turns with 1 finger, its beautiful. It tracks perfectly straight and when you brake hard it stays straight and no quirks. I have had it up to 80 and it handles like a dream. Also the best part is that because its all integrated, there is no adjustment.. ever, it just works when you turn, so less lines to leak, better ratio, tighter steering, and no maintenance except for occasional greasing of the end link which is normal for these steering systems. grease gun and 30 seconds takes care of that.

In fact, cause it has an independent rear suspension... Dare I say it reminds me of driving the SC handling wise alot. When I throw it aruond corners its so small, light and nimble I can drift it quite easily and I do consistently, I drive her freaking hard. I did not buy it to be gentle lol. I think I put a few cracks in the fiberglass from flexing the chassis so much lol but its amazing its so feather light when you turn its almost like it starts to curve as in oversteer right away. I would recommend it 10000% on any of hte older cars with wierd steering setups to o with the Borgeson upgrade. there is a power steering rack upgrade kit for double the cost, but this is more original most people can't tell its been changed, and really it handles so well I have been ridiculously happy with it. IT also increased the turning ratio, so it only about 1.25-1.5 turns to lock each side instead of 2 full turns which is sweet.

You have me wondering what this next project is that you want a 900 ft/lb trans for I have to know now lol!! I hope its a vette or camaro

Gerrb, I remember reading on the actual 350z forums about the chatter even when stock and especially when going to single mass flywheels with upgraded clutches. I don't know how accurate this is but apparently alot of people concluded that the trans was designed with a loose backlash, as in the gears have a little more play and use those other mechanisms to tighten up the play between gears. Alot of transmissions will have that to hold more power cause it makes for an easier meshing between gears, but at the cost of noise. We all know that the 350z trans is pretty robust power handling wise for coming behind a V6, and nissan is known for overbuilding things but they aren't exactly known for keeping noise down or smoothness, my 240sx was none of those things but it was overbuilt. this is one of the reasons why there is a dual mass flywheel stock if i understand right helps a little bit but its actually internal to the transmission the slack between gears so even a new one would do it. there are plenty of threads on "clunk" or "backlash issues" at idle if you do a search on there. Not everyone has it though is what makes it very curious, its almost a luck of the draw sort of thing how much play your specific trans has in it. you are actully hearing the main shaft turning its gear against another gear where they are not perfectly touching all the time when you hear that noise. once you load it up the gap dissapears and they are in constant contact so that is why the noise is mostly present at idle, its not spinning fast enough to overcome the play which is there by design.

again don't everyone jump and flame me for this, I just did research on the 350z forums from what people said and what others an dealers told them, I have not seen it or designed the transmission so its hard to say positive but when people say clanking that makes me think gears and lash, like when on a 1uz or 2uz if you forget to take the service bolt out of the cam gear that holds the scissor gear down (spring loaded small gear that keeps the intake cam gear and exhaust cam gear in constant contact), it will run fine but man the noises it makes is terrible and its exactly a "clank clank clank" noise as the gears keep whacking against each other. I still feel its a solid transmission choice especially for track or drag where you wouldn't care abut noise so much, but for a street car that could be super annoying if it happens to you. what scares me is it happens on new transmissions with stock 350z setups... so I wouldn't blame the dual clutch 100% but I am sure the single mass smaller flywheel is not helping anything cause you would want something heavy to keep things spinning well and in contact with each other at idle. I would still consider the 350z trans for my drag setup but if I can piece together T56 for a little more I will likely go that way.

Here is the car with my bro's supra just to keep things 2jz-ish related... JDM muscle and USA muscle next to each other.. I love it.

 

First off , if that stingray was mine .. it would have been painted yellow by now ! I have seen one of those in yellow and I can't get my eyes off it. But I have promised myself , I can't have a car in which I can't get a 2JZGTE in .. lmaol.

Thanks guys about the 350z trans noise info . The noise we are getting is a different kind of noise which is amplified whenever you press the clutch and change gears . I have ridden in a stock 350z and 370z when I was doing all my research on the CD009. Having been spoiled by V160 6 speed MKIVs , I had to check that CD009 shifter feel . I never heard these noises on those cars. You get a can , put 10 marbles , start shaking the can . Tell me what you hear , lmaol. The loudness depends on how violently you shake that can.

I will tell you though my guess on what is causing the problem . It is still the clutch . Well of course I maybe wrong . It is an educated guess on my end. I say clutch cause it includes the button flywheel which is an integral part of the clutch. So I agree with you Ali... no flywheel mass ! It is more or less 7.25" in diameter just like the size of the clutches. Imagine how small that is. It is too light to help absorb anything. Just like , the aftermarket aluminum flywheels on V160s and R154s create that marble in can noise. Not sure if anyone have heard those in their V160s or R154s. It is a common topic of transmission noise on Supraforums. Almost similar kind of noise but at times I get some vibrations.

Vibrations are not caused by the noise nor are the noise detrimental to the transmission. The circular motion of that crankcase brought about by the rods going up and down produce some vibrations. Exactly the reason the rotating assembly should be balanced. Those harmonic vibrations, without a good absorber , can be transferred to the trans. That is the reason , the flywheel being in between should absorb some if not all that vibration so it won't get into the internals of the transmission. If you are familiar with the stock V160 flywheel , it is damn very very very heavy . They are dual mass in design so it can absorb a lot of those vibrations . Jacks Transmission has a post on SF about multi-disk clutches hurting the V160 cause of their design.... not a lot of mass on the integrated flywheel. IF anybody among you have seen the 7.25" clutches sent by Collin .. their button flywheels are tiny ... you won't even think the damn button flywheel was the flywheel.

That I believe is the problem based on the little knowledge and experience I have on the V160s and R154s and their flywheels and clutches.

Halon - hope you got my pm !

 

The yellow on a stingray is amazing, that was my original color choice but didn't come across one and was not willing to wait. we will see maybe one day
You can totally fit a 2jzgte in one, in fact you wouldn't be the first Halon posted it a couple pages back


I guess that is a different noise, so there are multiple issues it seems where noise can arrive. guess that can be solved with a loud stereo
Its really a shame I was leaning heavily on the CD009 swap direction before, spent alot of time staring at that shifter and even got the gated shifter plate for it and planning etc..
I still have time so maybe some of these guys will work out some more stuff by then, if not I will keep the power down and go AR5 or alternatively bump up the power and sell a few cars so I can get a T 56 in there.

Now the vette has me curious on the GM auto transmissions, it has a T400 3 speed and when it shifts its like a kick in the pants, it feels like it could take heaps of power without issues. maybe I might have to build that one and just run it auto... although when I was cruising at 70 the v8 was turning like 3200 rpm's and sounded like it was working a little too hard. trade-offs I guess.


Well I think you guys can guess what my Christmas cards are gonna look like

 

Shaking a tin can with 10 marbles is not what mine sounds like. Mine sounds like more of a metallic whiring sound. At idle you hear it but as soon as you press in the clutch, it goes away. Let off the clutch, and you hear the whiring returns. Perhaps those twin disc arrangements are just so ight that it is amplified even more. Maybe mine might even get louder since I'm ditching my JWT setup for the collins flywheel. Hopefully I'll find out in the next few weeks. I have the trans in with most of the bolts started, but switched to dad mode now and am watching Clifford.

if one were to shop used t56 magnum, what would we look for exactly? I thought t56 magnum was simply the aftermarket name for tr6060 and they were synonymous, but you're saying that's incorrect? So if that is the case, what car do we shop for a transmission from to get one, and wonder what availability is like. That is one thing I really like about 350z transmissions, they are abundantly available online and at local junkyards. Perhaps the magnum is too, but I don't know what car I'm searching for since it's not as simple as shopping tr6060 equipped cars bad on what I heard you say.