Scary steering problem
#1
Rookie
Thread Starter
Scary steering problem
My '01 RX300 has developed an unpleasant steering problem. It pulls to the left on acceleration and pulls to the right when I take my foot off the gas. I've checked the tires. They're fine. About six months ago, I was told during a tire rotation that the right side needed a tie rod end, so although I could not find play in the tie rod end, I replaced it, being very careful to measure the distances between tie rod stud and inner tie rod. The problem did not go away. I do notice that if I jack up the passenger side, there is a small amount of play in the wheel with the play appearing to come from the steering rack. If I turn the steering wheel from side to side, I don't see any play in the wheels. Have any of you experienced this or a similar problem. My car has 220,000 miles on it.
#2
Lexus Champion
HYP,
I spent my life in automotive work and can assure you there are plenty of people in automotive servicing that make mistakes, way too many. Are you sure the play they reported to you as the tie rod end wasn't, in fact, the inner tie rod? (the rod that goes into the steering rack) If they thought they noticed a little play and didn't inspect carefull, they could have easily figured it was the end when in fact it was the inner tie rod. Either, when worn, would demonstrate movement.
What you described in the pulling is called "torque steer". 20-25 years ago it was a major problem. As the years have rolled on they have found one trick after another to eliminate more and more of it until it is not even noticeable in most cars today. The cheapest cars may demonstrate some of it, but most of the time it's not noticeable. Our younger son had a Honda Civic back in the 80's that could be driven down the street without ever touching the wheel. Just accelerate or decelerate to keep it going straight. You still shouldn't have that problem if the motor mounts and links are in good shape. Be sure and check them. The inner tie rod has a ball at the inner end that is the wear spot. It is inside of the "boot". To bad you couldn't run it with the front wheels on a dyno roller. Then you'd be able to see exactly what it was doing under acceleration and speed with it standing still. The joints in the front drive axles could also come into the picture with that many miles on it, but T/L builds their cars with incredibly high quality parts that last a LONG time!
I spent my life in automotive work and can assure you there are plenty of people in automotive servicing that make mistakes, way too many. Are you sure the play they reported to you as the tie rod end wasn't, in fact, the inner tie rod? (the rod that goes into the steering rack) If they thought they noticed a little play and didn't inspect carefull, they could have easily figured it was the end when in fact it was the inner tie rod. Either, when worn, would demonstrate movement.
What you described in the pulling is called "torque steer". 20-25 years ago it was a major problem. As the years have rolled on they have found one trick after another to eliminate more and more of it until it is not even noticeable in most cars today. The cheapest cars may demonstrate some of it, but most of the time it's not noticeable. Our younger son had a Honda Civic back in the 80's that could be driven down the street without ever touching the wheel. Just accelerate or decelerate to keep it going straight. You still shouldn't have that problem if the motor mounts and links are in good shape. Be sure and check them. The inner tie rod has a ball at the inner end that is the wear spot. It is inside of the "boot". To bad you couldn't run it with the front wheels on a dyno roller. Then you'd be able to see exactly what it was doing under acceleration and speed with it standing still. The joints in the front drive axles could also come into the picture with that many miles on it, but T/L builds their cars with incredibly high quality parts that last a LONG time!
#4
Lexus Champion
You mean the inner tie rod or the motor mounts or the drive axle joints? The inner tie rods do take a special tool but I think they can actually be bought pretty cheap as long as you don't buy them off a professional tool truck. The motor mounts, probably without special tools as long as you have a bottle jack. IF the drive axle joints were in any way part of the problem, you just buy rebuilt drive axles. They seldom overhaul them because the joints would cost more than a rebuilt assmbly. It still shouldn't be terribly hard to determine what is causing the problem. The Motor mounts or the upper stabalizing link would be more likely to cause the "torque steer". I hate throwing (expensive) parts at a car, that's why I try to make sure my diagnosis is correct before I tear things apart or buy parts.
#5
Lexus Champion
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...3A15708931%2Ck
#7
Rookie
Thread Starter
The "dog bone" is basically shot. Looking at an exploded view of the mounts, etc. it isn't easy to figure out exactly what needs to be replaces, mount-wise. I didn't look before I started this post, but is there a DIY on here concerning the mounts? Aside from needing a bottle jack... which I don't have. I do have a floor jack.
Trending Topics
#8
Lexus Champion
The "dog bone" is basically shot. Looking at an exploded view of the mounts, etc. it isn't easy to figure out exactly what needs to be replaces, mount-wise. I didn't look before I started this post, but is there a DIY on here concerning the mounts? Aside from needing a bottle jack... which I don't have. I do have a floor jack.
#11
Lexus Champion
Yes, but you need to use a piece of wood on the jack under the pulley (obviously the lower crankshaft pulley). Make sure and get it centered on the pulley so that the pulley doesn't turn. When you're using a floor jack or bottle jack to jack the engine anywhere, remember to only jack it as high as you NEED to do the job. Also, if you're changing a mount, be very careful when you have the mount out that you keep your body parts out of the way in case it slips and falls. I've NEVER had one do that, but it could be catastrophic if, say, your hand was between the mount bracket and the engine. Caution is your friend! Right side is correct.
A small piece of 2x4 should be OK for the lower pulley.
A small piece of 2x4 should be OK for the lower pulley.
#12
Rookie
Thread Starter
Update: I replaced the "dogbone" engine mount which on closer inspection was OK. Still replaced it. No change in handling. I also ordered the mount referred to as the "rear transmission mount" and will try Code58's engine lifting trick. Never got the bottle jack, so I'll have to try the 2x8 method.
I have the car up on jack stands to check steering play. Essentially none in the left front, about an eighth of an inch or so in the right. What, if any, play is normal? Also notice the inside part of the front tires' tread is more worn tan the outside.
OK, I lifted the engine as well as I could using the jack/2x8 method. The mount looks OK, as in it didn't separate. Is that what I would be looking for?
Looks to me that motor mounts aren't the issue here.
I have the car up on jack stands to check steering play. Essentially none in the left front, about an eighth of an inch or so in the right. What, if any, play is normal? Also notice the inside part of the front tires' tread is more worn tan the outside.
OK, I lifted the engine as well as I could using the jack/2x8 method. The mount looks OK, as in it didn't separate. Is that what I would be looking for?
Looks to me that motor mounts aren't the issue here.
Last edited by HadYurPhil; 03-24-13 at 10:11 AM.
#13
Lexus Champion
Inside front tire wear would be be from toe out or excessive neg camber. Is the inside tire wear only on the side with the 1/8 in play or on both front tires? There shouldn't really be any play in the tie rod end or the inner tie rod but 1/8 in isn't enough (I don't think) to cause the problem you have. Remember that on a FWD you have to go by the settings for that particular car. There used to be kind of a rule of thumb many years ago with RWD but not any more. Some FWD cars have some toe out because the torque pulls the wheels in to straight ahead. Some use a 0 toe. I still say the only thing I've ever been aware of that causes the pull (R on deceleration and L on acceleration) is torque steer so there must still be a problem with the suspension somewhere. Still need to determine if the 1/8 in movement is tie rod end or inner tie rod.
Concerning the mounts, normally seperation is what you are looking for but some mounts are now fluid filled and I believe the front mount is kinda high tech, maybe a small hose going to it if I remember correctly.
Concerning the mounts, normally seperation is what you are looking for but some mounts are now fluid filled and I believe the front mount is kinda high tech, maybe a small hose going to it if I remember correctly.
#14
Rookie
Thread Starter
The play would be in the inner tie rod as I replaced the outer one. The front mount is quite expensive, so it must be high tech. Again, I did try to raise the engine using blocks of wood and my floor jack and was not able to move it much at all. None of the mounts looked damaged and there is no vibration or other reported symptoms for bad motor mounts. Guess I'll try cranking the steering hard left to see how much of the inner tie rod is exposed and whether I need a "muffler clamp".
I think the tire wear is worse on the side with play.
I think the tire wear is worse on the side with play.
#15
Lexus Champion
I found my RX300 to be wildly sensitive to tire wear. When I got it the tires looked OK but it was all over the road on anything but super smooth surfaces but still tended to jerk left or right even then. A new set of tires and an alignment ended all that.
Your symptoms aren't exactly the same but don't discount the importance of tire condition.
Your symptoms aren't exactly the same but don't discount the importance of tire condition.