Supercharger Kit for RC-F - Option Magazine Teaser!
01-04-16, 12:08 PM
#34
just give it time. If a human can write the software for this car to have a stock tune, then a human of similar intelligence can re write the software, The FRS BRZ community has a very similar Injector ECU as the rcf the rcf has 2 of them. Its definitely not un crack-able.
Lexus/Toyota has been uncrackable. I am not talking about just the ISF and RCF. No one has ever been successful at cracking and reading the source code for USDM Toyota/Lexus cars. Put it this way, two software specialists were also granted limited access to Toyotas source code for several months under security, and they both stated the way the programming is structured and written, it does not follow the industry standard that all other car manufactures use. It does not follow any formal programming standard; Toyota made it up in-house. One of them referred to it as 'Spaghetti Code'. And that is what most mean when they say it is uncrackable. What that also means, lets say it was open, it would still never make sense to any programmer. And he would in effect, have to sort out all the thousands of other codes in order to decipher and write on it properly without introducing more bugs. The same software specialist also stated they couldn't even properly run testing on it...so how would anyone be able to check to see if the software change they introduced even works in conjunction with everything else? Lets just say if there were a software engineer talented enough to do it, he would not be designing or working for some standalone company for chump change.
Companies have claimed they were able to crack the USDM ISF ECM/ECU. But it is believed they possibly were only able to look inside. All of them have failed to put a product out that actually works. The ISF was complicated, and now the RCF is even more complex along with the Atkinson cycle added. Again, not to state that it is impossible. You can run a full standalone, but you would minus about $20-30k worth of performance features and the tranny.
01-04-16, 04:50 PM
#36
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
Tuning is the main hurdle for the US spec RCF/ISF and now the GSF.
This topic has been debated, discussed, and horse beaten to death for YEARS on the ISF section. And even today, there are no options available. Whats done in Japan is not easily transferred over to the US counterpart, because the ECM in Japan is open and does not have complex encryption keys. The USDM ECM is impossible to crack. And to top it off, the ISF has +14 ECUs that communicate with one another...so if one fails, the others will not operate properly. It gets more complicated with the 8 speed tranny with its own ECUs. Also with Lexus and their acceleration lawsuits, you would think they more likely made the ECM/ECUs even more complex...they do not want anyone messing with it or anything attached to it. So a simple piggy back will not work either. I just can't image how much more complex the entire system is now with the RCF. Lobuxracer can give a more descriptive detail about the entire system and why it is so complicated to deal with. And just because a big manufacturer like HKS is making a system in Japan, doesn't exactly mean they will cross over. Sure, they are a large company, but so is Greddy as you mentioned, and they also developed a supercharger for the ISF...which today, led no where. The bottom line, they couldn't tune the USDM ISF. And the market demand as of now still looks bigger for the ISF than it does for the RCF, and nothing has come out beyond I/H/E since 2008. For those that are just stepping in to the Lexus lineup and RCF and are thinking of force induction, do some research around the ISF section, and you will see the extent of whats been done, and where it has failed.
Sorry to be a party pooper, but it is true. In order to really modify the 2URGSE engine for serious gains, it must be a complete buildup. Higher boost doesn't work well with the DI, so some have removed it, and would require a revamp of the entire fuel system. Also the pistons, which are designed for DI, also did not hold up well to boost..so a piston swap would be needed there. And the complex tranny can be subtracted from the problem by installing a standard manual transmission, which also has been done and proven to work. To get away with the encrypted and uncrackable ecm and ecus, a complete standalone can be added, but expect to lose all other luxury and performance features inside your car. But on the very brighter side, there is a belief the JDM ECM pops right in and could work...from there you can tune just as you would with any Japanese aftermarket part.
This topic has been debated, discussed, and horse beaten to death for YEARS on the ISF section. And even today, there are no options available. Whats done in Japan is not easily transferred over to the US counterpart, because the ECM in Japan is open and does not have complex encryption keys. The USDM ECM is impossible to crack. And to top it off, the ISF has +14 ECUs that communicate with one another...so if one fails, the others will not operate properly. It gets more complicated with the 8 speed tranny with its own ECUs. Also with Lexus and their acceleration lawsuits, you would think they more likely made the ECM/ECUs even more complex...they do not want anyone messing with it or anything attached to it. So a simple piggy back will not work either. I just can't image how much more complex the entire system is now with the RCF. Lobuxracer can give a more descriptive detail about the entire system and why it is so complicated to deal with. And just because a big manufacturer like HKS is making a system in Japan, doesn't exactly mean they will cross over. Sure, they are a large company, but so is Greddy as you mentioned, and they also developed a supercharger for the ISF...which today, led no where. The bottom line, they couldn't tune the USDM ISF. And the market demand as of now still looks bigger for the ISF than it does for the RCF, and nothing has come out beyond I/H/E since 2008. For those that are just stepping in to the Lexus lineup and RCF and are thinking of force induction, do some research around the ISF section, and you will see the extent of whats been done, and where it has failed.
Sorry to be a party pooper, but it is true. In order to really modify the 2URGSE engine for serious gains, it must be a complete buildup. Higher boost doesn't work well with the DI, so some have removed it, and would require a revamp of the entire fuel system. Also the pistons, which are designed for DI, also did not hold up well to boost..so a piston swap would be needed there. And the complex tranny can be subtracted from the problem by installing a standard manual transmission, which also has been done and proven to work. To get away with the encrypted and uncrackable ecm and ecus, a complete standalone can be added, but expect to lose all other luxury and performance features inside your car. But on the very brighter side, there is a belief the JDM ECM pops right in and could work...from there you can tune just as you would with any Japanese aftermarket part.
Thank you for posting this. I 100% agree with you. A JDM ecm was swapped out here in the states but there were no gains just a raised rev limit. I just hope more people realize its not as simple as swapping out an ecu or throwing a turbo/supercharger at it. I strongly believe race teams like Ekanoo would have gone the route of tuning but its next to impossible. Thats why their quickest F has a 200+ shot of nitrous versus forced induction .
I still fail to see how a piggyback cannot end around the signals being sent to the ignition, fuel, etc. It has been done on a lot of cars in the past that does not require modification tot he stock ecu. Obviously a tuned eco is optimal for precise tuning but for many years the tuner market ran off of the alphabet of piggy backs (itc's, arc's, aic's, etc ).
tired of people acting like the ECU or ECUs are uncrackable. and there are 3 including mine Nitrous powered cars putting down 150 more whp than stock. I know boost is different but its the same idea. With there being the RCF GSF the new ISF and the LC500 sharing the same powertrians. Our options will open up. The RCF is already exploding in aftermarket popularity, And social media has alot to do with it. This thread is going to be back and forth with a bunch of internet bench tuners. Lets see what happens, and stillen is working hard right now on the IS supercharged format. I personally wouldn't buy a GREDDY kit for any car but that's just me.
just give it time. If a human can write the software for this car to have a stock tune, then a human of similar intelligence can re write the software, The FRS BRZ community has a very similar Injector ECU as the rcf the rcf has 2 of them. Its definitely not un crack-able.
as for the nos vs or forced induction difference i was referring to the strength of the motor. took me an hour and a half total time to tune my nitrous set up
as for the nos vs or forced induction difference i was referring to the strength of the motor. took me an hour and a half total time to tune my nitrous set up
I think a healthy debate is great. Amazing ideas can be generated from large debates on certain topics. I personally know the entire debate/argument on tuning the ECU has been long drawn out so I don't want this thread to turn into another tuning debate thread. In reality this was just a really awesome project that needed to be shared so we can all see what's been going on with the RCF platform.
We don't have enough info as to whether or not this will work yet. Everything is just speculation until this is finally released for the public. It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility as there is constant evolution and improvements happening daily in any industry.
As long as people are inspired, motivated, and have the ability to make something happen, who knows what could be accomplished. We're all crossing our fingers but for now, let's wait and see.
Awesome. Many of us will be attending as well. I personally won't be there this year but my entire team will be. I know it may be nearly impossible to find someone there without coordinating a meet up, however, if you happen to see my guys there, definitely stop them to say hi. I'm sure they'll be wearing some sort of Bulletproof Automotive T Shirt
01-04-16, 05:07 PM
#37
So has anyone swapped the us ecm with a jap ecm and put a supercharger or turbo on it? Should i sell my isf and go to japan and buy one and get it all done over there then import it?
Last edited by O1GS43O; 01-04-16 at 06:40 PM.
01-05-16, 01:41 PM
#40
[QUOTE=O1GS43O;9309705]So has anyone swapped the us ecm with a jap ecm and put a supercharger or turbo on it? Should i sell my isf and go to japan and buy one
Here we go again this has been discussed for close to 8 years now with no results. The most recent thread just ended about 2 monthes ago on ISF Forum . It's a huge thread read it thoroughly and you'll get all information you're looking for. Oh they did send him JDM ISF ECU and it didn't work. No increase on power! Read the thread as well as the other 7 plus years of threads regarding ECU tuning.
Here we go again this has been discussed for close to 8 years now with no results. The most recent thread just ended about 2 monthes ago on ISF Forum . It's a huge thread read it thoroughly and you'll get all information you're looking for. Oh they did send him JDM ISF ECU and it didn't work. No increase on power! Read the thread as well as the other 7 plus years of threads regarding ECU tuning.
01-05-16, 04:15 PM
#41
[QUOTE=Weapon F;9310878]
Unlike you, most of us don't read forums of cars we don't own, especially when looking for RC-F specific information. The IS-F is a generation behind anyway, and the RC-F just a year old. Give the guy a break. Or at least post the thread you're talking about to help him, rather than just b*tch.
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01-05-16, 07:52 PM
#42
Unlike you, most of us don't read forums of cars we don't own, especially when looking for RC-F specific information. The IS-F is a generation behind anyway, and the RC-F just a year old. Give the guy a break. Or at least post the thread you're talking about to help him, rather than just b*tch.
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Even though the ISF is discountinued, that doesn't mean the market is now gone. Lexus sold approx. ~11,000 ISF in 6 years. You honestly think the RCF is going to sell just as many, and that the market for RCF mods will be more demanding? The ISF market is small...the RCF is even smaller.
01-05-16, 08:10 PM
#43
You do know they have similar engines right? If you were in to tuning and modifying your RCF, wouldn't you want to be informed on how far and what strides have been taken on another vehicle with the same engine? Even though the ISF is discountinued, that doesn't mean the market is now gone. Lexus sold approx. ~11,000 ISF in 6 years. You honestly think the RCF is going to sell just as many, and that the market for RCF mods will be more demanding? The ISF market is small...the RCF is even smaller.
Even though the ISF is discountinued, that doesn't mean the market is now gone. Lexus sold approx. ~11,000 ISF in 6 years. You honestly think the RCF is going to sell just as many, and that the market for RCF mods will be more demanding? The ISF market is small...the RCF is even smaller. Do I want more power out of the F? Of course I do but my car was used to try a tuning solution. I was there every step of the way but in the end...disappointment.
01-06-16, 10:38 AM
#44
can you guys stop crying and let the OP post facts from the manufacturer as he gets them. No one cares about your opinion and we already know what you think.
I don't understand why some people think an stand alone computer will cost 20-30k; when a stand alone syvecs unit for the GTR cost 6.5k and it can be had for a lot less.
I don't understand why some people think an stand alone computer will cost 20-30k; when a stand alone syvecs unit for the GTR cost 6.5k and it can be had for a lot less.
01-06-16, 02:53 PM
#45
Lead Lap
I personally don't care one way or another, but I'm doubtful that we will ever see an huge increase in the aftermarket industry for our RCFs, especially from a forced induction perspective (look at the ISF).
Right now you have 2015 RCF's that have sat on dealer lots for 175-200 days and are now being forced to offer discounts of $5,000-$6,000 under MSRP (I paid $69,000 for mine) just to get rid of them.
Outside of bolt-on stuff, I'm not banking on much more being offered and since all these companies charge a luxury markup on Lexus aftermarket parts, it drives away a lot of potential customers into American Muscle cars where you can get twice the power for half the cost (granted, you don't get the Lexus refinement), but a lot of people care more about the power to the wheels then the quality.
Right now you have 2015 RCF's that have sat on dealer lots for 175-200 days and are now being forced to offer discounts of $5,000-$6,000 under MSRP (I paid $69,000 for mine) just to get rid of them.
Outside of bolt-on stuff, I'm not banking on much more being offered and since all these companies charge a luxury markup on Lexus aftermarket parts, it drives away a lot of potential customers into American Muscle cars where you can get twice the power for half the cost (granted, you don't get the Lexus refinement), but a lot of people care more about the power to the wheels then the quality.
Last edited by toystry; 01-06-16 at 03:16 PM. Reason: Poor grammar, lol.