peteharvey

We don't normally compare month by month - because the results can be grossly inaccurate.

For example, the current model Mercedes S Class debut in October 2013.
Sales was instantly just under 2,000 units/month.
In its first 12 months, the S Class averaged over 2,000 units/month.
Since its debut, the current model S Class actually sold in "four" digit figures [ie >1,000] every month for a whopping 46 months in a row.
Since its debut, only on its 47th month did S Class sales fall into 3 digits/month.
Since its debut in October 2013, the Mercedes S Class has monthly sales has only ever fallen into 3 digits per month on two occasions: once last year in August 2017, and only a second time this year in July 2018.

Bitkahuna will tell you that the Mercedes S Class is the number one "diplomat's" benchmark all over the world...

All4Lexus

A recent USA Today article has created a CAPTAIN OBVIOUS moment about the demise of the sedans.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...nda/878117002/

Plunging sales of the Focus and Fusion sedans, down 45.5 percent and 22.1 percent, respectively, comes ahead of the discontinuation of those models.

The Jeep brand continued to lead the way for Fiat Chrysler, increasing 15.2 percent to 79,906 units. The Jeep Cherokee is red hot, with sales soaring 71 percent to 20,210 vehicles.

Toyota's namesake brand declined 5.1 percent, while its luxury Lexus lineup declined 12.1 percent.

The company's passenger cars plunged 18 percent. But sales of crossovers, SUVs and trucks increased 2.8 percent.

The Nissan company's namesake brand declined 15.7 percent, while its luxury Infiniti lineup fell 10.1 percent.
(note: the rogue has gone off the radar, perhaps an ominous sign that 'compact' SUV is not the way to go or are there some underlying issue going on?)
The Rogue crossover, which has been one of the most popular models in the U.S., posted a sharp decline of 18.2 percent to 26,535 units.

Honda's namesake brand fell 8.4 percent, while the Acura luxury lineup was down 6.6 percent.

Passenger car sales declined 19.3 percent, while sales of SUVs, crossovers and pickups rose 3.2 percent.

The stalwart Accord and Civic sedans plunged 19.3 percent and 28.3 percent, respectively.


Actual results: Hyundai: -4.3 percent; Kia: -5.8 percent

The sibling brands of Hyundai and Kia continue to suffer from the decline in passenger car sales.

Hyundai's luxury Genesis brand might be hurting the most. Genesis sales tanked 62.6 percent to 616 vehicles.
Subaru outsold Hyundai and Kia in a crystal-clear sign of the Japanese brand's impressive rise. The company hit an all-time high for July.The company's new Ascent SUV is immediately paying dividends. Sales totaled 4,589 for the month, a solid performance for a vehicle that hasn't yet hit full distribution.
(note: Subaru's fast tracked larger SUV is turning into a big hit. To car or not to car is the question. The decision is overwhelming in favor of 'not to car' but to SUV.)


Finally -- for Volkswagen group --
The Atlas large SUV, which VW introduced last year, was VW's second-best selling big vehicle for the month at 6,499 units.

The Audi Q5 stood out as a big success, posting a 58.2 percent increase to 6,512 vehicles, making it the brand's best-seller.

CAPTAIN OBVIOUS observations: Industry wide, it is down and not a pretty picture. Perhaps the possible tariffs are creating a market chill on just about everything but the SUV segment. SUV's are actually an 'extra value' passenger car proposition. More space, more height, more headroom similar foot print, but it is not a dreaded station wagon look, van, or truck converted SUV.

SUV's rule the road for new sales and a deciding factor as long term value decision. The LS500 model is not immune to this effect, and luxury cars are being hit pretty hard (note: Genesis).

What Lexus does next will either show that they have responded in relentlessly seeking perfection of the SUV, or missed this opportunity for a full model release cycle of 5-7 years. It's still sticking with me that LS500 is certainly not the best Lexus can come up with in 11 years. The sedan game is over and the shift to the SUV world is now becoming standard.

peteharvey

In a market where sedans are being replaced by SUV high riding upright wagons, how do we judge the sales performance of a sedan?
Simply by comparing the sedan with its sedan peers [competitors].
For example, you know the Accord is certainly not doing well against the Camry.

All4Lexus

Great characterization !! SUV high riding upright wagons The greatest high riding upright wagon transformation award to near SUV is the Subaru Outback. The buyer is forced to pick between the Forester or Outback style. The Toyota SUV that almost pulled this feat with the Venza. 2015 was the last of that product line and Toyota be began to focus all SUV energies into Lexus RX. The Venza failed to meet SUV specifications yet was much more than a wagon (hence the confusion of where to classify or categorize this car). I hear ya -- the sales performance comparisons are going to get blurry and messy.

Will we ever see the "high riding upright wagon" category see light of day? LOL, probably not. SUV is good enough. Sport Utility Vehicle, Speedy Upscale Vehicle, Sexy Utility Vehicle, or Suburban Utility Vehicle... pick the naming that suits you best.

peteharvey

Getting a bit off topic, but low riding sports coupes have sold in very low volumes for quite some time.
The last Honda Prelude was back in the 1990's.
However, a small number of low riding sports coupes remain today.

Medium riding medium size sedans are at least reasonably practical, and although diminishing, presently still command at least decent volume.
It will be interesting to see what happens to sedans in 5 to 10 years time.

Because electric vehicles have the battery pack under the floor, I suspect the future will see a shift to high riding body styles, however be aware that in a Tesla Model S sedan, despite its exterior height, the interior cabin has lost some 4" in vertical cabin height.

It is much more noticeable in a Landcruiser vs Highlander.
On the outside, the Landcruiser appears to be some 8" taller, but inside the Highlander is much more spacious than Landcruiser, because the Landcruiser's floor is so much higher off the road surface for superior off-road ground clearance.

shinonclub

No idea about the Chicago land, but I have seen at least 10 LS500 cars on the road in the San Francisco Bay Area just over the last month. Also saw some in the LA area when I visited there a couple of weeks ago. Anyone else from other metro areas?

john341

I have seen Nine LS500 in Dallas/Ft.Worth. This one I saw about 2 weeks ago.

peteharvey

One of the other forums made an interesting point.
He said that previously, it was Mercedes S Class versus Lexus LS versus the Rest.
Now, it is just Mercedes S Class versus the Rest, or depending on how you see it - it is Mercedes S Class versus Tesla Model S versus the Rest...

SW17LS

peteharvey

^ This thread is about sales.
The poster from the other forum was also referring to sales competition amongst the full size luxury sedan segment.

He says that in his market, which is the second biggest luxury car market in the world [behind the US], the S Class is outselling the new 5LS by a considerable amount, and that even the exotic ultraluxury Maybachs are outselling the all new 5LS, and that "the S Class is now definitely in a league of its own, and that we have to accept the fact that the LS is just a better someone else".

SW17LS

If you look at vehicle sales over time in the flagship luxury sedan segment he's still not correct about the US. The LS has spent most of its life, except when it was very new and cheap, trading #2 and #3 sales positions with the 7 series, which it still does. The S Class has almost always been the sales leader in this segment, that isn't new.

Toys4RJill

I sort of have to disagree. You may not think it belongs in the ultra luxury segment but it is selling at the ultra luxury price point and gaining market share. You would need to be a certain demographic to be an owner of any of the cars in the $100K price points.

dsc07

I think you're confusing income and price with luxury. Super Cars from Lamborghini or Bugatti or Ferrari all cost many multiples of a Model S, but nobody would seriously put them in the same segment as a Mercedes S-Class or Lexus LS. As I stated before, the Model S really belongs in a class of its own.

I will amend my earlier statement, however. 2 of the 4 people I know who own/owned Model S's got rid of them when their lease was up. One went to the Model 3, the other is moving to the Hyundai Ionic for the unlimited lease miles. Curiously, both of them said the same thing about the Model S - while they loved the car, it is way overpriced for what it is. I think we may see a lot more of that as first adopters leases end. There's a lot of competition in the EV segment today vs. 3 years ago, and the Model S is no longer the only game in town.

Toys4RJill

I am not confusing anything. To suggest that the Telsa S does not compete in the same price, buyer and luxury category as the LS, A8, 7 or S just does not make sense. Those model are in decline while the Telsa S has moved in towards that segment of buyer.

Does the Tesla S belong in a category all to itself? Not sure, maybe, but the LS and Tesla S both do the same thing, they are designed to move 5 passengers. So I think not.

Is the Tesla a less luxurious vehicle compare to an S class or LS? That is up for debate.

dsc07

It makes perfect sense because the cars are so different, that's why they're in different market "segments". But let's just agree to disagree.

A couple of points. While the LS 460 was designed to move 5 passengers, the LS 500 clearly is not. The Model S isn't either, but unlike the LS, it never was. Yes, you can fit 3 adults in the back seat of each car if you really want to, but not comfortably.

Secondly, the Model S sales are in decline along with the rest of the non-truck/SUV industry,

2016 - 2,452 avg units/month
2017 - 2,255 avg units/month
2018 - 1,717 avg units/month

And I'm not bashing the Model S here at all. I did 2 test drives before I decided to go with the LS 500. It's a really cool and interesting car, it just doesn't have any of the features that qualify a car for the "luxury segment", except the price. It works for some people, just not for me, and I'm guessing not for most of the other traditional luxury segment buyers, who are looking for both luxury and performance, over just the performance part that the Model S offers. Tesla has created their own market niche... and good for them.