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All of them PALE in comparison to what sorts of things you deal with when you’re talking about a German flagship car.
I hear you. I have never owned a German car, and I think the main reason is trauma from my childhood - mainly from witnessing my father's adventures with his 450 SEL but also others' experiences with Audis of that era (think 5000S) and BMW.
So assume the dealer charges $200 for the part, You think it's reasonable to design a vehicle that takes 3- 5 hours for an oxygen sensor?
If you saw where it is then you would think it is, it's not easy to do on the 460 and the 600 is more cramped and you have to drop the exhaust I believe. Some cars really do take hours to do the upstream sensor like on a Xtype jag since you MUST pull the intake and rear valve cover to get to it.
I think it is what it is. Do you want to complain about it or fix your car?
I drove my LS400 for over a year with a temperamental starter because Lexus designed a vehicle that took 8 hours of labor to replace a starter.
If you want an easy car, buy a Camry. Hell even my ES 300 need multi- hours of labor to replace the lower control arms, that was like $1,500 in parts and 8 hours of labor.
The starter is easy.......like I really don't understand why people freak about it. Do one on a early 2000s CRV AWD and then tell me the 400/430 is difficult. There are MANY starters that are worse to do, I won't get into German cars since they are actual hell in some cars requiring engine mounts to be unbolted and exhaust removed.
The starter is easy.......like I really don't understand why people freak about it. Do one on a early 2000s CRV AWD and then tell me the 400/430 is difficult. There are MANY starters that are worse to do, I won't get into German cars since they are actual hell in some cars requiring engine mounts to be unbolted and exhaust removed.
It's easy if you are willing and able to do the work with the proper tools. If not it can be an expensive job when taken to any mechanic. They will most likely charge at least 4 hours labor plus the price of the part. The dealer is $140 and hour and a couple of hundred for the starter and we are at about $800 before they even start to mark up the labor and part.
It's $150, $30 more if you replace the intake seals and clean stuff in parts. If you rebuild the contacts it's like $15, I've done them and charge two hours labor so that's $130 plus cost of parts. Do the EGR tube as well if you are in there at minimum, probably should consider knock sensors too
It is a small/mid size job, I have done more than a few on tundras. I already told you what it cost the 4 people I did it for, sorry prices suck in your area but it's really not hard and not that major of a job. Valve covers are worse to do
I will admit that here in the North East They don't show that kind of love. You can get a reman Denso for $150-$200 and then the rest is labor. On the 98-00 there's no EGR pipe to deal with either. Make sure to change the 2 coolant crossover pipe gaskets. I reused the 2 lower manifold gaskets since they were in great shape. You must be one of the few honest mechanics around lol. Sorry for derailing the thread.
It is a small/mid size job, I have done more than a few on tundras. I already told you what it cost the 4 people I did it for, sorry prices suck in your area but it's really not hard and not that major of a job. Valve covers are worse to do
By this logic you can do the O2 sensor replacement the OP was complaining about for the cost of the sensor.
Listen to the last part of that video, the guy says “you can save yourself $1,000-$2,000 Australian, but it’s a very difficult job.
$1,000-$2,000 Australian converts to about what uve talked about, which is what a shop would charge you for this job, certainly a dealer.
You may be willing to work for very little but professional shops aren’t, they price a job by book rates.
I see you live in Ohio, no clue where but I picked a zip code at random (Ashley, OH) and put it into Repair Pal and I got a range of $747-$841.
To bring it back to the OP, "Does it make sense to design a car where the entire intake manifold has to be removed AND the coolant crossover pipe in order to replace a common replacement item like a starter?",
All these cars have quirks that are expensive to deal with, not just the 460.
By this logic you can do the O2 sensor replacement the OP was complaining about for the cost of the sensor.
Listen to the last part of that video, the guy says “you can save yourself $1,000-$2,000 Australian, but it’s a very difficult job.
$1,000-$2,000 Australian converts to about what uve talked about, which is what a shop would charge you for this job, certainly a dealer.
You may be willing to work for very little but professional shops aren’t, they price a job by book rates.
I am a pro shop. Try again, this is one area you are arguing with someone who knows the ins and outs and who charges fairly based on what a job takes. I could probably do his sensor for two hours labor or around there even if book says six, I did cats on a Porsche Cayenne and the book says 12.3 hours and the part is a dealer only item for $890 my cost.
Took me 3.5 hours and I used a VW Touareg cat that cost $300. Do the math between book and reality of the job, this happens more than you think. Then the best part is I can then undercut their otherwise lowest quote by 15-20% and they are ecstatic and you still end up billing for 7 hours labor and both you and the customer are happy with the outcome and they send everyone they know.
(Edited for horrid phone based spelling and composition)
Last edited by Striker223; Feb 15, 2020 at 08:32 PM.
I see you live in Ohio, no clue where but I picked a zip code at random (Ashley, OH) and put it into Repair Pal and I got a range of $747-$841.
To bring it back to the OP, "Does it make sense to design a car where the entire intake manifold has to be removed AND the coolant crossover pipe in order to replace a common replacement item like a starter?",
All these cars have quirks that are expensive to deal with, not just the 460.
It actually makes perfect sense, the starter is protected from road spray, exhaust pipe heat, it's using a space that would otherwise be wasted, it usually lasts more than 150k if not 250k (all the ones I did were over 200k, one was 280k) and is centrally located to allow better layout of the exhaust and other times since they don't need to bend around it. The starter is anything but common on these cars, it's just that so little goes wrong it's ironically one the first things to really fail.
Nice choice of location, that's within 5 minutes where I am.
Last edited by Striker223; Feb 15, 2020 at 08:02 PM.
