I've put hundreds of thousands of miles on the ES and the LS but what do I know lol

 

It looks like you're getting defensive. I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what you were talking about; more like we were talking about different things in terms of ride.

 

All I can tell you is my LS sedans rode/ride better than my ES sedans did (smoother, and I do know what that is). If you find otherwise, based on my experience I would say the LS you're driving has suspension issues/crappy overinflated tires, etc. Not even a comparison in my opinion, and there were times when I owned both cars at the same time...in fact I still from time to time drive my old 2003 ES, which was better riding than my ES350 IMHO and doesn't ride as well as my LS.

 

Still defensive I see.

Absorbing bumps 95% of what I'm talking about with ride and you said they weren't all that different. All your responses after have clearly been about something other than the ride quality I'm talking about.

 

Not defensive at all, I just completely disagree with you. "Absorbing bumps" is not the be all and end all to the ride. As I said, I've had two ES's and three LSs, the LS is overall a superior ride. If all you want is a softly sprung car and what makes the LS a better more sophisticated ride doesn't register with you, by all means save the money and get the ES, or a Buick or something like that.

 

You're still defensive. In fact you're actually starting to go on the offensive as well. You're now trying to shift the discussion to sophistication not registering with me, as though I'm a barbarian or something.
Absorbing bumps is extremely important to me and is 95% of what I want in a suspension (I have already said something to that effect). The rest is allowing the car to turn without rolling, which any car should be able to do with ease. Buicks don't ride like they used to. If I could get my 85 back in the shape it was in in 2006 when I sold it (bad transmission and all) for what I sold it for I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately that's not an option. However, I wouldn't pretend it was a nicer car than an LS. Nor is the ES. The LS is quieter and the fit/finish is better. Those things affect how comfortable the car is, but have nothing to do with better ride. The definition of smooth I was/am using is the opposite of bumpy. Perhaps I should have used a phrase like "handles bumps better", but it's too late to do so.
To be clear my position has always been that the LS is an overall nicer car, but the ride was smoother in the ES.

Now could you please stop getting defensive about the difference of opinion, which as I stated a while ago comes down to a different interpretation of the phrase smooth ride. Note: please don't attack me either.

 

LOL. I'm not sure where you're getting his info as "offensive". I went back and re-read his post several times and found it to be quite, "matter of fact" based on his experience. You've chosen to be DEFENSIVE about it and I'm not sure why. I did not see any "attacks" either, though if the moderators see any, it'll be addressed. In this case, I don't see why. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

Perhaps I was being overly sensitive, but when somebody disagrees with you after repeated explanation of the confusion their next step is usually a thinly veiled attack. After the thinly veiled attack it's a less subtle attack on the character and it's basically chaos after that. I thought perhaps the subtle nod to my not registering sophistication was that thinly veiled next step and I wanted to avoid the ensuing chaos. I don't know if somebody on this forum would do that, I don't know any of you, but that's usually the way it goes on internet forums.

 

Hmmm. Fair enough. I've been around many forums, including Bimmerfest and MANY others, so I get it. Steve (SW15ls) has nearly 18 THOUSAND posts here and a valued member of this forum. Stick around a while and I'm sure you'll find it a nice little spot with very helpful information. Relax.

 

LOL, How was I going on the offensive?! Did you take my suggestion to get an ES or a Buick as offensive? It wasn't meant to be offensive. I had two ES sedans remember? If all you want is a ride that is softly sprung (meaning it absorbs bumps well) and don't care about the refinement, solidity, quietness, or stability (which is essentially what you said) that makes the LS a better ride then I suggested you buy something like an ES or a Buick...which have more that sort of ride.

Remember you're the one who tried to tell me what it was I was seeing and that I was assessing The wrong things when it came to the ride and I pointed out that your assessment of what I was looking at was wrong. I've put hundreds of thousands of miles on these cars over the last 20 years and you've driven them for 15 miles so I don't need to be told by you what I am focusing on when I drive them thank you lol.

I maintain that if you think the ES rides better than the LS, the LS you've driven has issues. That happens, many people here have driven several LSs and were disappointed only to finally drive a good one and realize what people have been talking about. They're very sensitive to tires, tire pressure, whether they have the 19" wheels or the 18" wheels, etc. Suspensions are complicated and you have a tendency towards worn control arms and bushings. The ES by comparison is much less sophisticated and straightforward. You yourself admitted this because you said the 10 you drove absorbed bumps just as well as the ES.

That "riding on glass" feeling is the hallmark of these cars, if you didn't feel that something is not right with the car. Seeing that we all own the car and know a lot more about the car than you, if you truly are interested in the car it might be time for you to stop "telling us" things and listen to what we're telling you.

 

As I told roadfrog; it starts thinly veiled and then descends very quickly from there. I also said it was the unsophisticated (now unrefined) that's the thinly veiled part; not sure why you thought it was the ES/Buick comment.
You'd be hard pressed to define what you mean by refined ride if handling bumps isn't included. I said (repeatedly) quietness isn't a part of the ride. Your insistence that it is won't change my mind. For example the quietness of the vehicle is also relevant at a standstill, when clearly the car isn't riding anywhere at all. Fair enough on the stability; it's not terribly important to me as long as the car stays rubber side down. I also said Buicks don't have that ride anymore; you're not reading my entire posts.

I was saying you and I were focusing on different things with the subtext that your insistence that you are right about what I am looking for is fundamentally wrong. You were assessing the wrong things because you keep substituting your definition of ride for mine, which (again) boils down to how the car handles bumps. The number of miles you've put on is quite relevant to how the car suspension wears over time, but you haven't mentioned how it's changed over time; you've just used the number of miles as a pseudo-justification for why I'm wrong about what I mean by smooth ride.
As for what I should buy, the focus of these last dozen-ish posts has been how the car handles bumps, but it isn't the only factor. It's very important, but so is the quietness and the quality/feel of the interior. The reason handling bumps (note I'm no longer using the word smooth and will try to avoid ride as well) has come up so much is your insistence that I'm wrong about how the cars perform in that regard despite your initial comment that they are very similar. All things considered the LS is the better car (another thing I've said repeatedly).

 

If it's not too late to comment on the two...the LS should feel like you're flying in an airplane (minus the turbulence) while on the highway. The stability and smoothness is pretty special. If it doesn't feel like that soemthiJG is wrong. You should be able to drive an ES on the highway and an LS and say...oh now I get it.

The wheel base on the LS is wider, it's more stable. It has 8 control arms up front, each with their own ball socket attached to the steering knuckle...it should feel pretty smooth. The ES has a cheap McPherson strut design, with one big control arm on the bottom...with only one ball joint attached to the steering knuckle. , it's pretty limited. Steering is achieved by the bearing at the top of the strut and the ball joint at the bottom. The struts take a lot of abuse and most likely were changed out.

I think what you're saying is that the ES handles bumps better...it feels less harsh...it feels different. Who knows? Maybe you're right. The LS does seem to be tuned to be a little aggressive in comparison of the two...it's a different car, it's heavier, the struts don't turn, the spring rates are different. But on the highway, at least, you should be able to feel a difference in stability and smoothness. IMO.

 

So my experience of owning both cars you're discussing for many many miles and comparing and contrasting them over the years isn't of relevance to a discussion about how one rides vs the other. LOL, okay. I'm not telling you your assessment of the car you drove was wrong, I am telling you that it sounds like that car wasn't a very good example.

Something either is or is not sophisticated. The LS is a much more sophisticated car than the ES, all one has to do is look at the suspension setups to see that. As you have said, 95% of what you care about in the suspension exists in the ES, for me thats not the case. I would say its more like 50%, and its the LS' sophistication that delivers the more solid drive, the more stable drive, and the additional refined feeling how it reacts to things on the road, those things contribute 50% to my experience and only 5% to yours. Ergo, its of more value to me than you so perhaps its not the right car for you.

For me, while the ES rides nice the difference overall in how the two cars ride is night and day. Best allegory to the ES is a modern FWD Buick sedan. Or a 90s/early 00s Lincoln Continental.

Another test of pure damping you can do is drive over a speed bump at 40 MPH in the ES and the LS. The LS will glide right over the bump without jostling the passengers inside, the ES will leap up and crash down and probably scuff the front undercarriage. I know thats how they will react because I've done exactly that.

Exactly. I call it "like driving a hovercraft". It the feeling like the car is detached from the wheels. The ES does not feel like this, nor do most cars. As I said before, with bad tires or over-inflated tires it spoils the feeling in the LS too. But again, apparently we know nothing. "We're just looking at the wrong things".

 

pretty simple if the control arms and suspension had some wear makes all the difference. also if the cars history comes from the north east or areas like michigan or chicago where the area roads beat suspension beyond belief makes all the difference.
completely different automobiles, and just in fwd vs rwd and the ridgity of the ls core underpinnings is 25% stiffer than the older es, the newer es is probably closer in structural ridgity
so its not an apple to apples comparison, go find a better example of a used ls and compare your findings will be completely differnent
or get crazy purchase a used ls460 never seen from florida if the car was never hit verified by a body shop prior to shipment and you will have an example of a land yacht

 

+1
I enjoy driving my wife's 2017 ES350. The ride is compliant but on the stiff side. A little bumpy/jittery for me.
The ES feels like I'm driving a stock 2Gen IS or a lowered G37 on Tanabe coilover (owned both).
My '08 LS with 87K+ mi rides much better.
Very comfortable on long trips. Suspension is softer so it absorbs road imperfections well.
Down side is car's body roll on turns and floaty feeling on high speed.