I think that you can tell that the ES and the LS are related (in the same family) but they clearly don't look like the same car. Also, I think that the best part of the LS is the inside and the LS dominates almost the entire car market with its incredible interior!

But honestly speaking, interior or exterior styles are actually a matter of personal preference. I love Lexus interiors over any other car in the world. I love the way how they put the delicious wood trim throughout the car. But my neighbor would probably think it's the most ugly thing in the world. So I think styles are actually a matter of "opinion".

Most people who can afford cars in this class wouldn't care much about ergonomics or the price tag. They're paying higher insurance and maintenance costs just to park their car in the garage. They wouldn't care much about burning extra fuel just because their car doesn't cut through air as well as others.

As for the price, did you know that the LS 460 customer demographics has a yearly salary of $250,000+ ? A majority of people in that customer base wouldn't consider the price tag as one of the top factors in their purchasing decision.

Customer Service is an issue that revolves AROUND the car, not the car itself and that can be corrected over time.

I agree about the build quality point. But that's also something that can be corrected as well.

The most difficult thing to perfect in designing a car is the performance and handling. That requires top engineering. Benz and BMW have over 60+ years of experience in this department. Think about all those records the engineers can go over in HQ and learn from the company's history archive in engineering.

I agree the IS and GS are a huge leap forward and they're hot on BMW's heels. But BMW and Benz aren't stupid either. They'll try their best to stay one step ahead of Lexus.

Remember when the IS 350 came out with specs that claimed 5.5 seconds to 60MPH and we all laughed at BMW? The BMW 330i at that time was spec'd at 6.5 seconds or so. 2 years later, the new 2007 BMW 335i rockets to 60MPH in 4.8 seconds according to Car and Driver. That's M3 class. I know it's butt ugly, but again that's a person's opinion. It's unreliable as Paris Hilton's IQ level, that I agree.

The new M3 is going to be even faster. Hopefully the IS 500 can keep up.

My main point is, Lexus HAS to get performance and handling on par with the Euros. They should also be less conservative in styling. If they don't and assuming BMW and Benz fix their reliability and quality issues, it's just going to make things harder down the road.

I agree that there are a lot of people who aren't particularly influenced by the price, but I think the overall sales success of the LS owes a good bit to the fact that it is more affordable than the BMW and MB, and not that much more than a Cadillac or Lincoln, while offering arguably MORE car than any of those.

Not sure what you are exactly saying, but I can tell you that I live in a small neighborhood with a lot of modestly wealthy retired people, and several of them have some type of Lexus, along with a couple of Infinity owners. I'd say that I've happened to talk with 10-12 of them about cars over the past couple years and practically EVERY one of them used to drive MBs, BMWs, or Jaguars (multiple cars over the years), but now they drive the Lexus or Infinity. In pretty much every case they said that the poor reliabiltiy drove them to try the Lexus, and now the quality of the Lexus keeps them in it.

While I'd like Lexus to make the cars feel a LITTLE more like a BMW on the road (but absolutely NOT a MB), I don't think Lexus HAS to do that to remain the leader. Not everyone wants the BMW feel. You can get out of a BMW 7-series and into an LS and it feels like you've just plopped down on a comfortable sofa. Sure, the 7-series feels more sporting, but not everyone deep down wants to ride around in the performance posture all the time. The Lexus appeals to the comfort hog in most of us, and that side wins out over the wanna-be racer a lot of times.

Again, I'm not sure this is the case. *I* too would like them to be less conservative, but I'm not certain that would result in more sales. I haven't seen any proof that shows they'd gain more sales than they'd lose if they went with radical styling. It's pretty hard to prove that Toyota doesn't know what they're doing, since they are doing nothing short of kicking the living crap out of most every other car company. And assuming that BMW and MB will fix their quality and reliability issues is a big assumption. If they an do it, why haven't they already done so. Even Nissan has a lot of quality problems these days. It ain't as easy as just recognizing that problems exist. It goes to the heart of the operations, and it'll be a huge task to straighten them out.

BTW, not trying to be argumentative here -- just enjoying a good discussion.

I was referring to the salespeople and how things are handled by the dealer staff during and post sales. Or I guess that's what 4teh was talking about when he said Lexus customer service is better than BMW (which I agree.)

I agree about those relibility issues. But when you bring in the AMG or Porsche product lines, Lexus doesn't hold a candle in the performance category.

As you've pointed out, performance and handling also seems to be another "personal preference."

I mean change their style to the point it really "turns heads"; Design a car that's like a moving eyeball magnet. Seeing a Mercedes-Benz SL550 or CLS stroll down the road still makes me drool.

resale value better with benz bmw ? are u on crack ?

By the time Mercedes (and BMW) gets their "reliability issues straight", Lexus will have decided to build a performance sedan that will run circles around the MB's and BMW's. I'm not holding my breath for either event.

Since when is MB performance vehicle? :-)

No kidding. When I bought mine I felt like I decided to ditch performance for luxury.

C'mon guys.

A performance MB car isn't a E-Class, unless you're talking E55 AMG.

You guys have to buy the right Mercedes depending on what kind of car you're looking for. Any luxury SUV or 4 door sedan I'm getting has to start with a Lexus.

But for a luxury convertible, this is the one to go.

I think lexus-toyota will be comin up with a all out performance sports car very soon. Their last super performance car was the supra.

I can't even imagine how insane their next sports car will be.

their first prority was for the meat and potatoes (Scion, camry, LS, ES, GS, corolla, IS, ETC). Their performance car will be straight up gravy. You can bet on that.

I know for a fact toyota is salivating to take some of that 350z market share.

yup, that's pretty much how i see it. honestly if anyone want to talk about similar, my sc430 and the solara looks pretty similar and i bet a lot more people would mistake those two cars. i know a lot of sc430 not happy about that, but personally i can care less. i know what i have, that's all i care