One thing I've noticed about all the reviews of the LS460 is that all or at least most of the writers turn to attacking the LS on "prestige" or "lack of soul" when they don't have anything objective to say. The reason why I say that is that the whole prestige argument is very subjective. This car hits the target in alot of areas and one way or another all the writers admit that in their articles but they all make the argument of the lack of prestige. If the car wasn't so good then they wouldn't have to make that argument.

The problem that I have with that argument is that how can you debate the idea of prestige. it's really subjective. The only thing that can make a car or any product for that matter more prestigeous is time and a good reputation during that time. By that definition, Lexus will never be as prestigeous than an MB, BMW, etc. because they all have had more time building up their brand. To attack such a young car manufacturer on that point is unfair.

Prestige, can you time it? what's it 0-60? how many cylinders does it have? how quiet is it? how does it handle the slalom? what techno gizmos come with prestige? Do you see my point? When the LS comes out in the fall it will be the best overall car on the market based on all things objective. All the naysayers, will say no that it's not and make subjective arguments that you or I can't refute.

 

Absolutely. The traditionalist argument has been that prestige requires a long automotive history, is indicated by high prices and top engineering, etc.

Lexus is relatively young, but it has rewritten the rules of prestige luxury by challenging the stalwarts at their own game. It has exposed the hypocrisy of the 'long histories' of automotive achievement by beating its older peers on a variety of areas.

All that is left are, indeed as you say, the subjective areas for debate. Given time, Lexus may yet master those...

 

Sorry, I meant Prestige and Cut-rate are Antonyms not Synonyms



Thanks for your timely message. I have been dealing with this prestige issue for nearly 2 years in various forums under various pseudonyms and even met top lexus dealers during New York Auto Show to discuss this.

To make a long story short lack of prestige is directly related to pricing. Should I slow it down.

Prestige has nothing to do with 0-60. If that was true, porsche turbo would be more prestigious than ferrari 599 GTB and more expensive. Corvette would be more prestigious than Aston Martin. Porsche carrera would be more prestigious than Aston Martin AMV8 vantage and so on.

Prestige has nothing to do with Cylinders: If that was true. Phaeton V12 would be more prestigious than BMW 750 with V8. Chrysler 300C with hemi V8 would be more prestigious than E-class. BMW M5 V-10 would be more prestigious than Bentley Arnage V8.

Buicks are very quiet machines. Even Camry is very very quiet. Same with slaloms and tech gizmos. Even a loaded camry today has enough gizmos and is fast and quiet. And they sell half a million of those every year.

Does that ring a bell?

The cardinal fact is simply this: Prestige is objective. It is perhaps the most objective attribute. And it is directly related to three factors, price, volumes, and a compelling product. A compelling product will have more innovation, more luxury, more reliability, more beauty and more dynamism than its competitors. And if it is priced equal to or higher than competitors, it will win. And LS 460 is compelling.

If priced lower, it may win volumes, but its brand and its future will hurt.

Lexus is making compelling products. Not all, but at least some of them, and its pricing is cut-rate. That creates a negative emotion for a luxury buyer.
The rich think differently. High-end pricing attracts them. Value and cut-rate repels them. Prestige and value are antonyms, not synonyms.

Whenever you offer antonyms in the same package there will be massive damage. And Lexus is slowly damaging its brand. A time will come when this mind-set will become so deep that even if Lexus wants to become prestigious, it will fail.

Lexus has to move up-market with LS 460/L, since the product is compelling.

 

If the history argument was true, then

Benz (1886) would be more prestigious than Rolls (1904), Bentley (1915), Porsche (1948) but its not.
Cadillac would be more prestigious than BMW (1928), Lexus (1989), quattroporte (1963).
Maserati (1914) would be more prestigious than Ferrari (1947) even though maserati is older.
Volvo (1937) would be more prestigious than porsche.



Long histories are important but not the dominant factor as you rightly pointed out. By superior engineering, packaging, beauty, and refinement and NOT pricing it cut-rate, prestige can be achieved.


Prestige is not subjective at all. it is the most objective factor. And Lexus must shun cut-rate and price its products head-to-head with germans to win prestige.

 

Stevekil, what makes a product compelling is very subjctive. People like and buy things for different reasons.

Ok for argument sake lets say that Lexus has made the most compelling car with the LS460. So I guess that means that everyone who owns a MB, BMW etc. will trade in their cars and get a LS. Right?

 

We shall see if the price increase proves your points, which you have articulated with thought-provoking details. Will Lexus be able to 'buy itself prestige?' Or is that a poor way to put it. I think that the price increases with the new LS series will give us the answer. However, I expect them to play both sides of the equation, using the 460 base model to maintain more connection to the 430 pricing, while the 460L and 600hL move up.

I remember a Lexus ad from way back that used to say 'and you don't need a hood ornament,' or something like that. There are 2 perceptions which may affect Lexus, one is its identity as the 'Japanese Mercedes' -- good thing?

 

I believe mercedes deserves it's "prestige" label. After all, it is according to history, the first car ever made. With a history that long, it deserves every accolade it gets. Also is sad they are so unreliable today....but that's another sugject.
Lexus, to many people will never reach that prestige plateau. Not as long as it is made by toyota. Ford buys Aston Martin and Jaguar but no one cares. Lexus will forever suffer the albatros of being a Toyota. I understand it a little but on the other hand, I don't. The SC line has plenty of soul. So does the LS...a car that changed the auto industry. Yes, Lexus is a brand deserving of prestige. The only people that need to agree are the ones who have made the cars one of the most sought on the market today. I'll bet there's more peopel leaving mercedes than there are leaving lexus.

 

Yes, you are right there will always be subjective element. And with some attributes such as beauty of design, it dominates the canvas. People like and buy things due to many subjective and objective views.

However, prestige is largely objective and related to price, the subjectivity comes from the compulsion that product creates in the rich person's mind.

Now, take LS 460 as an example. Not every german-car owner will trade in.
That is not true even among the germans. If that were true, everybody would flock to S-class or 7-series and one of them would go out of business.

The idea is to position yourself depending upon the compulsion of your product. Intuition, emotion and gut should be tapped. Like you said, LS 460 has the VOW! factor. All it has to do is move away from value and cut-rate and it will win rich man's heart.

 

Hood ornament is a symbol. We cannot go against human nature. It will always be important.

"Buy itself prestige" is a hazard. No one has been able to do it in human history. Prestige can only be obtained by making a compelling product and positioning it appropriately.

It is the positioning where Lexus is going wrong. That is why they are confusing everybody in Europe and Lexus has not been successful there.

IS is the leg (volumes)
GS is the trunk (anchor)
LS is the head (crown jewel)

All three must be healthy to succeed in europe. leg is healthy, head is now healthy. But trunk is not compelling. GS does not look sexy.

Europe is home to luxury. Lexus should learn from Europe. Nobody in europe mixes value with luxury. Those who have, suffered a lot.

 

You are correct. Benz deserves it. It has stamina and staying power.

Lexus can reach that status too. It has to do it intelligently. Nothing is impossible. Impossible is nothing.

The toyota argument is not healthy. That is not the problem.

Consider porsche and VW. Both are controlled by Porsche and Piech clan. The iconic porsche 356, 914 shared everything with VW. Cayenne is successful but based on toureg.

Important thing is proper differentiation. That is why Porsche succeeded.

Since Ford has bought Aston martin volumes have grown 100 FOLD!! talk about being successful.


Lexus should get rid of those cars which are poorly differentiated like ES.

 

Ford may have made Astom Martin more successful but they are now trying to sell it!

And I know you don't like the ES, but it is part of the leg/trunk of Lexus in the US.

The problem with the GS is that it does sporty luxury, but struggles in some ways against core Lexus values. While the IS does that really well, the GS does that well in specific areas but not in others.

In some ways I think the similarities in design cues from the IS to LS (side profile) suggest Lexus has infused more of the IS spirit in the LS than GS spirit.

 

have you seen the ES sales for august? The ES for its car type (a luxury focused sedan in a world of only entry sedans that is only sport focused) is unchallenged, not everyone wants a sport sedan for an entry luxury car, large ES sales prove it

 

A good point.

Big Jimm
So. Fla.

 

Wall Street Journal said today (their radio program) that Ford should cut Lincoln and Mercury,
and sell all other companies except Mazda and Jaguar.

Big Jimm
So. Fla.

 

I have observed this response from hundreds of people including you and Enigma888.

The conundrum is that nobody can prove it unless ES is killed.

You and Enigma rightly point out that ES sales are great and besides it allows non-enthusiasts to enjoy Lexus luxury without paying a premium price such as that with GS and LS.

I am of this opinion that ES is repelling away many potential IS lovers.
ES is also cannabilizing some (not all) potential GS lovers.

Besides, Lexus Executives have publicly acknowledged in the past that they want to build a BMW like sporty, athletic image.

That is why the new LS 460/L is dramatically more athletic than LS 430 as can be felt from the media reviews so far. Motor trend has never done a tire burn-out before with an LS. Others like Paul Eisenstein from Car Connection and others from About.com etc have been positively impressed with its athleticism.

ES with its soft-sofa like demeanor, funny body roll and huge overhangs is casting a negative shadow over those dreams.

Therefore, the sales and profits are great, but is that good for the brand?? Especially when all other brands, germans, cadillac and others are becoming more and more sporty every day. Will it attract or repel future Lexus owners. Only future will tell!