So after driving my 05 LS 430 for awhile now, compared to my 07 LS 460L with air suspension, I honestly feel like the LS 430 has a much more isolated driving experience.


It’s like Lexus engineered the 430’s to be more rigid and isolating from the road, and even engine noise and vibrations vs the LS 460’s.

But how did they achieve this goal? It’s my observation that the subframe and lower control arm bushings are much more beefy on the 430 vs the 460’s.

Now because the 460’s have a completely different and sophisticated suspension design, the suspension articulates a lot more, but then it allows for more body lean and excess body movement.

Also the control arm bushings, specifically the lower arms on the 460’s, don’t look as robust and they lack the rubber thickness that the 430’s have. Maybe this has something to do with the 430’s better isolation in its ride quality?

I am trying to think of other possible engineering tactics that were used that make the 430’s a smoother driving car. This goes for its drivetrain as well. It’s more quiet and smoother than my 460. Less overall vibration I’ve noticed when driving over rough roads.

The interior in my 460 sometimes can creak from the dash and I just feel slightly more road harshness compared to the 430.

While the 430 is tight as a drum, and silent as a tomb with no creaks or rattles. The mileage between both cars are practically the same, give or take a few thousand miles difference which both have a 150k miles on them.

So what gives? Can anyone confirm what I am talking about?

 

I test drove a couple of LS460s, four LS430s and a few LS400s before I bought my LS430.
The LS400 (conventional suspension) has the "softest" ride but has considerable body roll when you push it hard.
The LS430 (air-suspension) has way less body roll and much more direct feeling in the steering.
The LS460s (air-suspension) I drove felt numb with little or no steering "feel" and had more body roll than the LS430, but not as much as the 400.
The engine in the 460 has noticeably more power but felt rougher with more engine noise in the cabin.
Yes, I know that most don't "push" their LS but I do, so steering feel and confidence in the grip/cornering matter to me.
If you want the waftiest, then the LS400 is it but the LS430 is also very good, with either conventional or air suspension.
If you want it to handle as well, then you want the LS430 with air-suspension as it reacts to how you drive, so you get the best of comfort and handling.
However, this is a 2 ton car, so don't expect Miata levels of handling. <LOL>

 

i would love to improve the handling of my non-air ride LS430. what is the biggest bang-for-the buck? Coilovers? Sway Bars?

 

One of the things I imagine that makes a different is simply the wheels and tires outfitted from the factory.

I worked at a Lexus dealer in 2006 when the LS460s were shipped in, and the first two demo cars were LS460Ls with the 19 inch wheels.

I couldn't believe how harsh they rode even with the air suspension.

 

Probably thicker/stiffer sway bars to reduce cornering roll.
They will not change the ride too much which is good.

 

I think I ruined my ride a bit with 19s and lowering on data systems. I do notice some outside noise, wind, rain, tire noise on the highway. But I would say over all the car is very quiet compared to what else is out there for the price and no rattles.

I still have a 4ls itch but I just don't know if it's worth double the price of my ul. Especially i only want lwb or 600hl. Most 4ls I find is swb and pretty base cars.

 

Wheel size and tires make a huge difference in ride quality. This is why I hate newer cars now since the standard wheel size seems to be 18-20 inch wheels with rubber band tires that ride like crap. I know it’s for styling purposes, but physics will tell you otherwise.

I don’t know how auto manufacturers are able to filter out NVH all that well with such large wheels and skinny tires without causing a lot of road noise, and harsh road impacts from potholes and deep cracks on the road. I wonder if they even test for these harsh road conditions when they design their vehicles. As someone that lives in a city with absolutely terrible infrastructure/street/road conditions, having 19 inch wheels on my LS’s, they would get destroyed in a weeks time driving on the roads where I live. It’s no wonder why so many people own big trucks and SUV’s with beefy tires out here, it’s to counter all the potholes, lopsided roadways and deep dips at every intersection, you need an off road vehicle of some sort just to survive the horrendous road conditions in San Diego.

The LS 460’s are hard to find in the long wheelbase model, but they are worth it. I love my 460L, as it does feel like a proper full size luxury sedan. The LS 430 personally, feels more like a midsize luxury sedan, similar to an ES 350, there’s nothing “huge” persay about the LS 430, but its qualities totally out weigh it’s shortcomings when it comes to its overall size.

As far as the LS 460L, what’s really nice about the L model, which I am not sure too many people know about, is that the door panel armrest is wrapped in that synthetic leather, so you avoid the melting cheap vinyl armrest material that falls apart on these earlier standard wheelbase models. Engine noise is far more audible in the 460 like what was mentioned above, but the power difference between the 2 cars is like night and day. The 460 is a rocket ship off the line.

It’s crazy because not too many modern sedans, including new luxury sedans have the low NVH levels like the LS 430. I think it would cost these automakers too much money now to install so much insulation, and thicker steel panels to absorb all the noise. Unless you buy a new S-Class or something of that caliber then that’s a different story. But for the money, and reliability, these LS 430’s are a freaking steal.

 

San Diego here too! Time for a meetup!

 

I've had a 99 LS 400, 2 LS 430s and a 2012 LS460. I sold my LS 460 for a 2004 LS 430 with the factory Sport Suspension option. If you could find one of these l would highly recommend it. I've also read about using the parts(shocks, sway bars,ect.) to convert to the factory Sport Suspension option. It makes a noticeable positive difference in handling!

 

I've had a 99 LS 400, 2 LS 430s and a 2012 LS460. I sold my LS 460 for a 2004 LS 430 with the factory Sport Suspension option. If you could find one of these l would highly recommend it. I've also read about using the parts(shocks, sway bars,ect.) to convert to the factory Sport Suspension option. It makes a noticeable positive difference in handling!

 

I think it comes down to several factors, some intentional some incidental:

• Lexus uses less sound deadening in the LS460 and later cars than the 430. If you watch Car Care Nut's youtube channel he bought a 600k mile LS 430 and has been posting about how well it's built pretty constantly. I hear more wind noise and road noise in my 4LS than my 3LS; so I think this was an intentional choice to reduce the "rolling isolation chamber" effect. It's been that way since day 1.
• The 1UZ engine is built like a sherman tank. 6 bolt main bearing caps, separate counterweights for each journal, deep bolts into the block, these engines are one of if not the best V8s you can buy. I have an earlier 1UZ in the SC and it's also great but less isolated. Many people think my LS430 is a hybrid because at idle, after 23 years and 138k miles YOU CANNOT HEAR IT RUN.
• The UR engines are not quite as overbuilt and have high-pressure pumps for the DI system which are noisy. Even when covered up you can still hear it. When the engine cuts off in the hybrid it's very noticeable if the car is at a stop and the engine is cold. Moving (or with the stereo on) it's less noticeable.
• When I had my 600h in for it's hybrid battery replacement (that's another story) my mechanic confirmed that the 430 is built like a tank. The 460/600 is a nice car but the 430 was the final iteration of the original take no prisoners approach that birthed the original 400.
• The 4LS suspension is more optimized for handling, also at this point for whatever reason Toyota started putting stiffer bushings in their suspensions (which they later reversed see the progression in the IS-F over the years). I think this made the car "feel" sportier but degraded the ride, and allowed more noise and vibration into the cabin. Also bigger wheels means skinnier tires. You'd be amazed at how smooth the ride is in my 560 SEL with 15" wheels rides after all these years, it's even better than the LS430.

When I was shopping for my 4LS I thought the 430 had the same off the line response and was more responsive at lower speeds than the 460s I drove, but this could also be the simpler transmission. The UR is a peaky engine you really have to cane it before it moves. I didn't think a 460 was worth the money as an upgrade so that's why I started looking at 600s.

Re: a non-air ride LS I've heard the rollbars from the sport suspension are a quick and relatively cheap upgrade. Sewell in Dallas used to sell the complete sport suspension as an upgrade / replacement for the air suspension but they've since discontinued their online parts business.

I had originally considered selling the LS 430 after the 600 arrived but now I'm going to DOUBLE DOWN and have started looking for a spare. They are a crazy bargain now and probably the last of the overbuilt Toyotas, and for a modern car they aren't that complicated and have very few known issues.

I think it's the best sedan Toyota has ever made.

 

That’s what’s up! I’ll DM you so we can link up. 😎👌

 

Great assessment of both the 460 and 430. The 430 definitely feels like Lexus didn’t cut cost anywhere, while in the 460, you can tell that the quality of certain things dropped off a bit, but this goes for the ES350’s when they came out in '07 which was way more noticeable compared to the 460.

The ES300 and 330’s as far as quality of materials and interior styling, they were way better built cars than the entirely new ES350 that Lexus came out with in 2007.

My ex girlfriend had a '09 ES 350, and the interior quality and exterior paint is horrendously bad for being a Lexus. The entire car felt more like a Camry than a Lexus, everything felt cheap and more plasticky instead of soft padded vinyl was used during this time.

I do believe that the 460 was engineered to be less isolated than the 430, and it’s obvious when driving both cars back to back. But I will say, the 460L with air suspension has one of the smoothest rides around and they are quieter and smoother riding than the stock non-air suspension cars.

When I test drove an '04 UL 430 a couple of months ago, its air suspension didn’t feel as floaty or as soft riding as the stock 430 suspension. I really couldn’t tell much of a difference between the non air and air ride 430 suspension like I did when I test drove a standard 460 vs the one I own with air suspension, the car rides a lot smoother and it does feel like you gliding above ground on a air suspension 460, it’s just the isolation from harsh road impacts are better in the 430 than my 460.

The doors close with a nicer heavier “thunk” on the 430 as well. Door panels are of higher quality, the fit n finish is better on the 430, including the paint. The trunk lid is pretty heavy on the 430, while super lightweight on the 460. The leather seats are more comfortable and of better quality with nice piping on the edges on the 430 vs the 460.

Overall NVH is superior on the 430. So newer does not automatically mean better IMO. I’ve driven and have owned so many cars over time, specifically classic cars like Cadillacs, and I could even tell the cost cutting and lower quality models that are very noticeable depending on the year. For instance after 1964, Cadillac including the rest of GM’s lineup started to cut cost and implemented more plastic, less metal components into their cars specifically on the interior. Less sound deadening materials were used and overall quality control started to slip big time in the late 60’s and well into the 1970’s.

This is why I truly believe that Toyota/Lexus golden era was during the 1990’s-2006. Similar extent of American luxury cars. Their golden era was the 1920’s-60’s. The 70’s were great for that big comfy couch like ride with huge comfy bench seats and cars being as long as a battle ship, but the quality was the worst in the 70’s.

 

It's funny, because I actually read an article from motor trend out of one of their issues in the mid 60s, and the 1965 Cadillac Fleetwood was in a 5 car comparison with a rolls Royce and some other pretty high end stuff, which shows what class it was competing with at the time.

One of my other cars is a 1975 Cadillac coupe DeVille that I bought from the original owner, and some of the quality issues that it has to this day when it left the factory are laughably bad by any standard.

The rubber trim strips that runs down the sides of the car is misaligned on the drivers door by about half an inch, the ratty edges of the headliner are visibly poking out from behind the window trim on both side windows, and just about every body panel that is bolted to it has stacks upon stacks of metal shims in order for them to be in alignment.

And the car hasn't been restored or anything, is is all original. Most of them were in the junkyard within 5 years or so, but mine must've been built on a Wednesday or something!

And I agree, that Toyotas and many Japanese cars were over engineered in the late 80s and 90s in the midst of the Japanese bubble economy. The early 90s Camrys with their triple door seals are a good example of that, and same with the Mitsubishi 3000GT that had active aerodynamic panels, convertible hardtops, and a slew of other tech that wasn't common at all at the time.

 

Loving this thread! I debated updating to a 460 at one point, but decided against because of the larger engine and resulting lower mpg's, bigger wheels equaling more expensive, lower profile tires, and a lot of talk that they were just not as bulletproof. I love the 430's, premium luxury for Camry maintenance. I am 6'6" tall so while the 430 is not huge, it is upright and I can fit comfortably sitting upright with people behind me. I would LOVE to get an L, but alas, there was no 430L. It makes sense that the L would ride a little better with the longer wheelbase.

Agree with @FlexnLexus , tires and wheels are huge, and it makes me nuts that I see Jags and Benz S's and Bimmer 7's riding on 40's. I mean yes, there have been great advancements in suspension, but you cannot fully replace rubber. I specifically shopped for the 17's so I could at least ride on 55' instead of 45's but one day I may get weak because I think the 18's from 04-06 are simple, beautiful, muscular, and perfect. My philosophy of why Lexus did that to the LS is simply market share. You cannot rely on seniors to support a model line and the younger crowd wants invisible tires and sharp handling. My gut feeling is that it has not been successful. I don't see many 460's and even fewer 500's, and I used to live around Bellevue, Washington, where PLENTY of people could afford them. What is the future of the LS? Will it survive? Clearly they are not 'market-disrupting' anymore as they were in 1990 and 2001. Sad.

I still think one day I will pick up a 2010-2013 (right before gross huge grill and yucky white LED driving lights, my opinion ) 460L as it sounds like 2010 was the year they worked out the kinks. But for now enjoying the trouble-free simple elegance of my 430.