wayne86

I have a 90 LS400, 220K, and A/C is warm. I see this Freeze12 refrigerant on Ebay but not in the stores. They claim its a drop in replacement for R12 and is approved by EPA. Ebay has kits for refill but I dont see it at any auto parts online stores. I also dont see any R134a retrofit kits at stores so I take it that this is not a DIYer job? Of course Im trying to keep the cost down since the car is great but not worth a whole lot at this point.

Any experience with DIYer A/C?

Heepspo

I did it myself on my old Pathfinder. I bought the kit from NAPA and simply switched from the old refrigerant to the new with no problems AT ALL. They tell you that they "don't mix" and that it will cause all these problems because they don't want you to DIY because of the "ozone" stuff. Lies.

The kit comes with new fittings that go over the old ones. You simply recharge with the new can and it's good.

That's my experience anyway.

MCHolyG

just screw on the new fittings. they are quick disconnects, you screw em on with some locktite to the hi and low side valves. then you can add fluid. don't worry about the mixing, that's crap. if you use the system frequently, the orings will stay soft and you'll be good to go until you need the system evacc'd from moisture accumulation over time. then you get the blinking lite at the a/c button and the compressor wont stay on, kinda like mine is right now.

Harky

Don't mix...R12 and R134a are not compatible!
Put the conversion fittings on, recover whats left of the 12.
Vacuum the system and put in the 134a.
Most mechanics will also recommend relacement of system o-rings with ones that are compatable with 134a as well, but since this car is pretty long in the tooth, it may die long before the orig o-rings do.

Heepspo

Sorry but this is simply not true. I know from personal experience. Just let the old stuff out, put the new fittings on and add the new refrigerant. There will be no problems.

Harky

Sorry Heepspo...but this is bad advice!
Do some on-line research. (Did you do some checking before you dumped 134a into your R12 system?)
These products use different lubricating oils, and different dessicants in their dryers. Not paying attention to specific cautions from A/C professionals and refrigerant manufacturers against mixing these products will probably lead to compressor failure.

SW07ES

I agree Harky. Genuine R12 is a mere $10-$12 a can on ebay and only genuine R12 can maintain the cooling performance, reliability and durability of a factory original R12 system.

lorenzo816

one has PAG oil and the other has mineral oil.
One of the Refrigerants has some chlorine in the liquid which breaks down the other kind of Oil. (sorry can't remember which is which right now)

This is why you don't just mix true R12 and R134.
And letting the old R12 out is against the law. (adds to our lovely ozone layer)
R12 must be recovered.

There are some aftermarket oils/refrigerants (freeze ring a bell?) that can be added to old cars that have R12. They claim they can mix....
But you'll soon be replacing it altogether with R134 anyhow.

trust me - when it leaks it is a sign.
stuff shouldn't just disappear in a closed environment.
so that is your car telling you something is going to happen.
sooner or later.

If you need a compressor with a clutch in the future, I know a company in MI with a massive deal on ISO-9001 rebuilt Densos.

SW07ES

Is is not against the law to add R12 to an R12 system that has a slow seepage leak, but still retains some of its refrigerant charge. It says this in the training materials that R12 technicians must study when preparing for their section 609 certification exam. It's only illegal to intentionally vent R12 to the atmosphere. So an owner can top off his slightly leaking R12 system as much as he/she wants for the life of the car. Slow leaks are typically caused by minor O-ring fitting leaks and may not get seriously worse for many years or even decades.

It's a huge myth and that R12 is going to be in short supply someday. Exactly the opposite is true. Prices of R12 on ebay have been dropping every year for the past 7 consecutive years because the supply of R12 exceeds the demand. The demand is low because so many R12 cars are at the end of their life span and now are in wrecking yards and because so many R12 owners have fallen for all the "upgrade to R134a" marketing propaganda and had their cars converted to R134a. Somewhere between 1-4 years after converting to R134a these duped owners learn the hard way that R134a ruins their R12 systems (leaks, compressor failure, expansion valve failure, etc) and the cost to repair them can be too high to justify.

In 1994 when R12 production was halted I was fortunate to read in Consumer's Research magazine why it was self defeating to convert to R134a and better just to top off an R12 system with genuine R12 as needed. I'm glad I found that article because my genuine R12 cars have keep running troublefree all these years whereas friends and acquaintances who converted to R134a have ended up learning the hard way why it was a mistake in the long run.

As for ozone hole damage, NASA says the hole is already shrinking and will be gone by 2040 or 2050.

lorenzo816

I'll preface this with: I'm not arguing with y'all... I just want to clarify.

Agreed. that you can add R12 to an R12 system.
But you need a license to buy unless you are a crafty ebayer.

The other thing, , is that you would need R12 gauges to figure all this out for sure and know whether you have a slow leak that can still retain a charge.
Maybe I'm just stupid or...whatever... but
I haven't been able to find (other than ebay) any R12 equipment other than the straight hose you would need to charge from can to car-fitting.

mac6694

Not looking to start arguements or stomp on weenies here, just posting from my viewpoint...

I'm currently working on the ECUs (environmental control unit, giant heat pump.) the military uses to cool its mobile facilities. Here we still use R12 and we reclaim, recharge, everything involving a freon system. We're supposed to be converting over to R134a 'someday' and it should come as no surprise that we have a half-dozen fullsized units designed to reclaim freon or add it back to a system. We can't re-use our old ones because to do so would require refitting each system, and its cheaper to just buy new ones. Does that tell anyone how compatible those two types of freon are? And something tells me the amsters of propaganda themselves aren't going to get the wool pulled over thier eyes, not for over a decade now.

SW07ES

R12 gauges are not needed to monitor the refrigerant charge. Toyota provides a "sight glass" built into the receiver-drier so the owner can monitor the refrigerant charge. If the system is low on R12, foamy bubbles will be present in the sight glass when the compressor is running. So all the owner has to do is attach the R12 charging hose to the low pressure schraeder valve and add R12 until the bubbles dissappear. A clear sight glass indicates the system is fully charged.

DietrichB

The Mercedes mechanic that helps me with my decrepit 85 turbodiesel also say freeze 12 can be added to R12, but remember that as your R12 leaks out it takes some of the lubricant with it, and you don't know how much, so it also has to added with the freeze 12 in correct proportion.

The above cautionary advise is right on the mark. Don't
mix 134 and 12 or you will probably condemn you AC system to death by shrapnel. You may wish to find a reputable AC shop and tell them you need the system topped up with genuine r12, lubricant, and maybe some dye, and monitor it for a few months, if it leaks quickly it needs help. A good shop won't blink an eye when you tell them you want the real stuff. You can fix easily it then, but if you mix chemicals and the compressor goes kablooey, you will have metal shavings all through the system, which will kill all the new compressors you subsequently put on, until the system is thoroughly cleaned. That may involve tearing out the dash. You will hate that.

Ac systems can be redone and will last and last, but they have to be done right, and no short cuts.

R12 cools best in an r12 system - correct head pressures and expansion contraction co-effecients that can't be matched by 134. Often converting to 134 involves having to upgrade to larger condensors, fands, and changing o-rings through the whole system, while there's plenty of R12 available.

lorenzo816

Site Glass - DOH!?!

thanks for the reminder!

SW07ES

[QUOTE remember that as your R12 leaks out it takes some of the lubricant with it, and you don't know how much QUOTE]

The lubricant (compressor oil) only leaks out if the refrigerant leak is sudden and massive - like if a big rock kicked up by a semi-truck smahed into the AC condenser (the condenser is located in front of the radiator) and punctured it, then both the refrigerant gas and compressor oil would leak out in a matter of seconds. In a large majority of cases, however, R12 system refrigerant leaks are small to miniscule and virtually none of the compressor oil leaks out.