gsgdbeck

I have a 2007 GS 350 with a Mark Levinson 15 speaker system. While the ML is a very good system it does not compare to my last car which had a high end aftermarket stereo installed. I've made the decision to use a summing device to direct the ML signal to a four channel amp as well as a custom amplified aftermarket subwoofer (not to mention aftermarket speakers in doors/dash). My question is has any one done any thing similar and if so which summing device did they use. Some of the ones I've heard about are JBL MS-8, Audio Control, Kicker Sum8/9, Alpine processor and so on. I'd really like to hear from anyone who has done the install on a ML and can comment how well their summing device is working. I've also heard that the ML system volume must be left at a constant volume level since any change in volume will more or less confuse the summing device, so I suppose you would use a remote control from the summing device to do volume ??? Thanks in advance.

cheez80

iTrader: (1)

if i remember correctly, you can use your stock head unit's volume control if you run a JBL MS-8

gsgdbeck

If you could use stock HU volume with MS-8 that would be great, that would mean that the MS8 would some how have to dynamically adjust to the changing ML signal (not just volume but equalization etc.) since it differs with the ML as volume is increased.

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Please search here for answers on what people have done, but yes, the MS-8 since it is used to overcome a logic 7 design (AKA - a JBL technology) will compensate on the fly for the volume changes that are present in the ML system.

Big Mack

gsgdbeck

Big Mack, I was searching for keywords JBL MS-8 but not getting hits, tried using just "JBL" and got some decent hits on MS8. Thanks. Seeng some mixed results some good,some mixed Example: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...some-help.html I've been reading some decent reviews on the Audio Control DQL-8 which has a nice dash unit (maybe in glove box) for many quick adjustments. Only negative is big price.

AZ IS350

This will be long story... I tried the MS-8 in my 2IS (non-ML, with NAV). After fighting it for two months, I ended up pulling it in disgust.

I had some of the same issues mentioned in the thread link listed above. In addition, I had a nasty turn-off pop and had to add an AudioControl LC8 in front of the MS-8 to get rid of it. Once I got passed that, there was lingering distortion in some speakers that I could not eliminate. Apparently, NAV head units send the signal at a sampling rate that the MS-8 can't read accurately. The only way the MS-8 could recognize the OEM signal and calibrate it was to set the HU DSP to "drivers" position. The problem with this is that the HU DSP settings affect levels, time delays, and acoustic phase for individual drivers in the system, and the MS-8 can't deal with this, especially an out of phase signal, thus the distortion results. It also sounded heavily right-side biased.

After relentlessly bugging the JBL guy in that thread (Andy Wehmeyer), he finally told me that for it to work I would need to intercept the HU outputs before the OEM amp and use that as the input signal to the MS-8. The downside to this is that you lose HU volume control, as well as other functionality that is processed in the OEM amp, like BT and NAV voice guidance. Plus, you run the risk of introducing noise into the system if you want to reconnect to the factory amp later. That was a deal breaker for me. Andy specifically mentioned that he had to do this fix in the GS with & without ML, so I don't think these issues are only present in the 2IS.

I was really disappointed in my MS-8 experience, especially since the impression given is that the unit was developed and works flawlessly in the 2IS. Apparently it works well with base non NAV, non-ML systems.

I'm going to an Audison BitOne next.

gsgdbeck

AZ IS350, Really appreciate this reply, this is exactly why I made this post in the first place, to hear from first hand experience. Please reply back with your Audison BitOne experience if you have a chance. Thanks again and good luck, One other link I found interesting and here is a sentence from it "Complex multi-channel audio systems like the Mark Levinson systems in the newer Lexus models and the surround sound systems in the Acuras and Volvos are not prime candidates for the CleanSweep due to their multi-channel, divided-frequency outputs". http://caraudiomag.com/articles/brid...nd-aftermarket .

rpsmith

A better way to solve on/off pops is to use devices that delay the power on/off, such as:

http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=145
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=146
http://www.davidnavone.com/cart.asp?14&pid=148

This is cheaper than using the audiocontrol, and it also has the advantage of not putting another device in the signal path.

In general, you want to delay the power-off of the upstream processor and delay the power-on of the downstream amps.

Did you try having the ML DSP totally disabled? The way I was planning on integrating was to turn off the ML DSP via the Nav screen, fade the audio all the way back, and use the stereo rear outputs from the ML amp to input into the MS8.

I agree. That is a totally unacceptable non-solution to this problem.

I presume you have already tried disconnecting the sound cancellation mic input. I heard that was causing problems on the 2IS in particular.

The problem with this is that, although using a bitone might get your system up and running, it's not going to have the big advantage of the MS8--the autotune. And you've already lost the built-in factory tune of the ML system, so you're left with nothing. Sound quality in a car is all about the tuning, and the bitone with its archaic 31-band EQs is not up to the task on its own. Even if you were to get some nice parametric DSP power in there downstream of the bitone, it is still a long and arduous and frustrating and error-prone process to manually tune a car. So, bitone+amps+speakers will get louder, but probably sound worse.

The good news is, at least you can get parametric processing fairly cheaply in-car:

http://www.minidsp.com

AZ IS350

Yeah I originally tried a couple of cheap PAC LOC’s and they got rid of the thump too, but you need at least 6 channels of LOC, so the LC8 offered a cleaner all-in-one solution, with better level control, plus I was hoping the internal summing capability of the LC8 might overcome the MS-8 issue (it didn’t).

I don’t have the ML system, so my HU DSP options may be different than what’s offered with ML. My DSP options consist of : "driver", "front", "rear", "all", with “all” essentially defeating the DSP. There’s no way to turn it “off “ in the non-ML system. The MS-8 couldn’t identify the signal at any position except “driver”, due to the sampling rate issue with the MS-8. Therein is the problem – the signal is already stepped on by DSP in the OEM amp at “driver” position, levels are adjusted and out of phase, and TA/EQ is applied to the source signal. I tried what you suggested, I also switched polarity, adjusted levels, balance, fader, etc. every way I could to get it to gel with the MS-8 and nothing worked. I’m not an expert but I know my way around an audio system better than most and believe me I tried everything short of what the JBL said to do.

I did disconnect the mic input as part of the process of elimination, although I actually wasn’t having any issues with it. That seems to be more of an issue with ML systems.

I think you’re pretty off-base with your impression of the BitOne as archaic.. It provides all kinds of fully active processing power. Signal summing, level/x-over/phase/ TA/EQ control for each channel, dynamic EQ’ing, etc. It’s really an advanced processor. You’re right that it doesn’t have the autotune capability, which is a big plus of the MS-8, but if you know what you’re doing you should be able to tune it quite capably with the BitOne, without the need for another DSP processor. The BitOne price is a drawback, but it’s nearly on par with the MS-8, at least at retail.

The big drawback to the MS-8 is its lack of tuning capability. It has the 31 band EQ, levels controls, and that’s about it. Granted, that works for the 90th percentile user, but if you hate the MS-8 autotune (and some do) there’s no way to defeat it and manually adjust to your liking.

I have read up on the MiniDSP. It looks promising, but I’ll wait until it’s a little more refined offering. The good news is there appears to be many new processors coming out that promise OEM compatibility. Alpine’s new Imprint, RF 360.3, Arc Audio SA8, Mosconi… all sound like potential solutions.

swtjlsy

iTrader: (6)

I have the ml in my 2007 gs and I went with the Jl set up clean sweep and 4 ssi for fading and balance control. It seem to work well for what I want in my car. May set up consist of hertz mids and high both front and rear with alpine pdx amps a f-6 and m-12. My subs are Jl 13w3 porter through the rear deck since there is a canceling problem with our cars. I might switch those out for 2 or 3 type x 10 I have, but all in all it work great for me.

rpsmith

I'm not talking about LOCs. I was referring to power on/off delay devices. Check the links I posted above.

Gotcha. That really sucks. On the ML LS460 you can disable the DSP completely. That's probably why Mr Mark was able to get it working in his ML system, in the other thread:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/lex...-8-anyone.html

Most of that capability is related to integration. The only things that enhance sound quality in that list are the time alignment and EQs. In my experience, time alignment does very little to improve sound quality. And I think 31-band EQs (which are indeed archaic) are not enough to compensate for the SQ-destroying characteristics of the car interior. Even the factory ML system, I am sure, has better filters than that. So I think the BitOne is a fine system integration processor, but if you are looking for sound quality you need to add more equipment.

Even if you know what you're doing, the lack of a modern EQ toolbox will limit you significantly if you use the bitone alone. Besides, after doing extensive tuning in my systems as an amateur, I really think anything less than a world-class pro tuner will produce pretty dismal results in car. And it takes so much time too...months for an experienced amateur like me. This is why an autotune that works well (an important caveat) is so awesome.

It is true that the MS has limited *manual* tuning capabilities; all the fancy filters are used exclusively by the autotuner. So if you don't like the MS8's autotune, then the MS8 is almost completely pointless. I think, though, that this is the proper way to do it: a 31-band is good enough for toning the response to suit your taste, in a overall high-level kind of way. For actual room correction you need the higher resolution and adjustability of parametrics.

I believe the only one of these with an autotune is the Imprint. I tried the old Imprint autotuner and it was atrocious. If Alpine wins some nationwide competitions with their new Imprint, then I might consider it.

AZ IS350

So, I’m not interested in getting into an internet dik-swinging contest with anyone here about how well/how to make the MS-8 work in any other Lexus, or the virtues of any other processor for that matter.

All I can state factually is that I tried the MS-8 in a 2IS non-ML with NAV, without success. I tried extensive measures to make it work, more so than the average person would, and it still it didn’t work. A high level source at JBL confirmed my issues, so I’d say my results are conclusive for my model and audio system, and I’m not willing to try the compromise solution they proposed.

As to whether it will work in other Lexus vehicles, or why it appears to work in some but not others, I cannot say. I encourage everyone who’s interested to try it in their own vehicles and report back on their success.

My BitOne is on order. If I have success with it, I'll be sure to post.

rajeev6

By the way, my understanding is that ML system has a fixed design and it stays the same no matter what model is it. You can see few details of the ML system in HS250h on my this post too.

WIZARD1325

iTrader: (1)

So did you get your bit one? how did it go? I was thinking of buying JBL MS-8 MS Series Digital Processor
but this post is making me think twice about it ...hmmmm

AZ IS350

The Bit One has worked out very well for me. No noise, fairly easy to integrate, and lots of tuning capability to really get the system dialed in. If you get the Bit One and don't know how to tune, then I'd recommend having it professionally tuned, otherwise you'll be lost and could easily damaged your drivers. It's also not cheap. You can buy a new MS-8 for less than used Bit One's usually sell for.

I posted my thoughts about the MS-8 in your thread over in the 2IS section. If you have NAV, then don't get the MS-8.