Phase Linear
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 443
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From: International
Phase Linear
Allright, now that I have learned here that my sub setup is no good, I went to listen to a friend's Phase Linear Aliante SI 10" sub in his BMW 330.
All I can say it sounds great, so I'm thinking about replacing my Emphaser with a Phase Linear.
The thing is, he's using it in a small enclosure, and I have no clue if it would work in the SC's stock location, i.e. in a free air setup. Anyone knows?
In general, how do you figure out if a sub works free air, or what type of enclosure (size, type) is needed?
Thanks
All I can say it sounds great, so I'm thinking about replacing my Emphaser with a Phase Linear.
The thing is, he's using it in a small enclosure, and I have no clue if it would work in the SC's stock location, i.e. in a free air setup. Anyone knows?
In general, how do you figure out if a sub works free air, or what type of enclosure (size, type) is needed?
Thanks
Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: uk
You will need an enclosure for the Phase Linear. It won't work free air. Looks interesting, though.
The manufacturer should tell you if a sub is designed for free air applications and should also recommend cabinet sizes. To check for free air suitability, look for the Qts figure in the Thiel-Small parameters. You want a number between .6 and .8. Anything too far outside that band is not suitable for free air installation and needs an enclosure.
Stevie
The manufacturer should tell you if a sub is designed for free air applications and should also recommend cabinet sizes. To check for free air suitability, look for the Qts figure in the Thiel-Small parameters. You want a number between .6 and .8. Anything too far outside that band is not suitable for free air installation and needs an enclosure.
Stevie
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 443
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From: International
Allright, thanks Stevie. Guess you're becoming my personal 'Car Audio Consultant' 
. I'll look at other subs which should work without the enclosure. If anyone has some recommendations for a high quality free air sub ... I'd like to hear them 
Reading previous posts, I understand that JL or ID should be pretty good? Anything else?
Please understand that the stuff they have available at the shops around here is very limited ... so I kind of depend on the pro's suggestions.
Thanks ...
. I'll look at other subs which should work without the enclosure. If anyone has some recommendations for a high quality free air sub ... I'd like to hear them Reading previous posts, I understand that JL or ID should be pretty good? Anything else?
Please understand that the stuff they have available at the shops around here is very limited ... so I kind of depend on the pro's suggestions.
Thanks ...
Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: uk
I'm happy to help, but I would be happier if you got some input from a few other people. There are a lot of very experienced people on this list. I'm just a learner as far as car audio is concerned. I've been designing speaker systems for a long time but only started to work on car audio since I got my Lexus.
As you currently have a 12 inch driver installed, I assume that you are looking for a free air 12 that you can retrofit. Your choices are limited, because the market does not really cater for this kind of driver.
The 12 inch free air drivers I know are made by JL, Dynaudio and Focal. Visaton also do one that the list members here won't know about but which you will be able to get hold of where you are.
There is also the option of using a dual voice coil driver and connecting only one coil to raise the Qts. That's an option I've been toying with myself. Does anyone have any experience with doing this?
Stevie
As you currently have a 12 inch driver installed, I assume that you are looking for a free air 12 that you can retrofit. Your choices are limited, because the market does not really cater for this kind of driver.
The 12 inch free air drivers I know are made by JL, Dynaudio and Focal. Visaton also do one that the list members here won't know about but which you will be able to get hold of where you are.
There is also the option of using a dual voice coil driver and connecting only one coil to raise the Qts. That's an option I've been toying with myself. Does anyone have any experience with doing this?
Stevie
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 443
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From: International
Hmmm ... have not yet fully given up on that Phase Linear (yes, it really sounded excellent!). I've read some posts here and a few articles on the net about aperiodic membrane enclosures.
Seems that this would be ideal for mounting the Phase Linear to the rear deck. There should be enough space for the enclosure underneath. This article even says that when installing the sub in the rear deck, the membrane could be bolted in front of the driver :eek:
http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/apmats.htm
Any comments on this idea?
Seems that this would be ideal for mounting the Phase Linear to the rear deck. There should be enough space for the enclosure underneath. This article even says that when installing the sub in the rear deck, the membrane could be bolted in front of the driver :eek:
http://www.mmxpress.com/technical/apmats.htm
Any comments on this idea?
Search Function Inc.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,819
Likes: 2
From: California
Phase Linear is EXELLENT sub. I have not checked out specs yet but I have heard it. It was installed well and sounded outstanding...tough to beat by most subs out there. I would highly recommend them if you are more into SQ rather then SQL.
Driver
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: uk
>Phase Linear is EXELLENT sub...
There you go! Retro is a guy who has listened to his fair share of car audio equipment.
I have modeled the 12si for you, as I assume you will want to use the existing 12 inch cutout in your car. It needs a sealed enclosure of between 15 and 20 litres - which is relatively compact. It is well specified for a car speaker and you should get a flat response down to 20 Hz. The 10 will probably need even less volume.
Forget the aperiodic membrane idea. I think this is someone trying to reinvent the wheel for marketing purposes. The first company I remember using these was Goodmans in England. Then Dynaudio use what they called the Variovent to compensate for their early, excessively underdamped drivers, which had a Qts of 1.1. to 1.2. They have been around for decades but nobody uses them any more.
A 15 - 20 litre enclosure is nothing - you won't even notice it's there. Now you just need some suggestions as to where it should be installed.
Stevie
There you go! Retro is a guy who has listened to his fair share of car audio equipment.
I have modeled the 12si for you, as I assume you will want to use the existing 12 inch cutout in your car. It needs a sealed enclosure of between 15 and 20 litres - which is relatively compact. It is well specified for a car speaker and you should get a flat response down to 20 Hz. The 10 will probably need even less volume.
Forget the aperiodic membrane idea. I think this is someone trying to reinvent the wheel for marketing purposes. The first company I remember using these was Goodmans in England. Then Dynaudio use what they called the Variovent to compensate for their early, excessively underdamped drivers, which had a Qts of 1.1. to 1.2. They have been around for decades but nobody uses them any more.
A 15 - 20 litre enclosure is nothing - you won't even notice it's there. Now you just need some suggestions as to where it should be installed.
Stevie
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Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 316
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From: California
I have the PL 12 inch..and have it in a sealed enclosure. It really requires very little space and mounting depth..(btw...where do you plan on getting the PL? As far as I'm concerned it's almost impossible to get one in the US) ..I wanted to mount the box on the rear deck having it fire up into the cabin but couldn't get it to fit so it's firing towards the rear as of now...
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Rookie
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 50
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From: Utah
I think I have heard of people doing free-air with the Aliante. Check out the forum at www.phase-linear.com and try posting there. Usually someone (I think either Bernard or PL-Tech) will be able to make it work for you. Also see if you can find an Illusion Nd12. There website is www.illusionaudio.com, but one of these may be hard to find, as I think they are out of business. Maybe try Eton (forgot the website, but they are a German company, and they do carry a car audio line). I would also take a look into the A/D/S/ woofers, I think they are the RS series.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11
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From: Taipei
If you are looking for an SQ sub, PL Aliante Si is an excellent choise.
The only Phase Linear Aliante Si Series that can be installed free-air is the Aliante 8Si. But Aliante 8 Si is a woofer, not a sub-woofer.
Recently, I just replaced my ID Max with one Phase Linear Aliante 12 Si. It is in an Element Enclosure 1.25ft^3, sealed box. SQ wise, I prefer this Aiante Si than the Max by a large margin. I can tell a greater detail in the lower frequency with excellent tonal integration with the front woofer, the Dyanudio MW170. Great transient response. Not an SPL guy myself...
Here is my sub setup
The only Phase Linear Aliante Si Series that can be installed free-air is the Aliante 8Si. But Aliante 8 Si is a woofer, not a sub-woofer.
Recently, I just replaced my ID Max with one Phase Linear Aliante 12 Si. It is in an Element Enclosure 1.25ft^3, sealed box. SQ wise, I prefer this Aiante Si than the Max by a large margin. I can tell a greater detail in the lower frequency with excellent tonal integration with the front woofer, the Dyanudio MW170. Great transient response. Not an SPL guy myself...
Here is my sub setup
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
From: California
Adam,...did you get your PL in Taipei?
If so can I ask how much (in NT or US doesn't matter) and where did you get it? I have the 12 inch....would like to get the 10 inch....
I didn't know the element enclosure would work with the PL..I've seen those sold before but never quite sure whether it was worth the price...
If so can I ask how much (in NT or US doesn't matter) and where did you get it? I have the 12 inch....would like to get the 10 inch....
I didn't know the element enclosure would work with the PL..I've seen those sold before but never quite sure whether it was worth the price...
Driver
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 153
Likes: 1
From: New Orleans, LA
The 8" Aliante looked pretty interesting as a midbass unit, but it only plays flat up to 750hz.
Adam, were you using that same enclosure for the IDMAX? If you were, it would have a very high Q factor, so high F3 and sharp rolloff. The Alliante, however, would be in a box larger than necessary, so that would explain it's quality low frequency output when compared to the IDMAX...
Adam, were you using that same enclosure for the IDMAX? If you were, it would have a very high Q factor, so high F3 and sharp rolloff. The Alliante, however, would be in a box larger than necessary, so that would explain it's quality low frequency output when compared to the IDMAX...
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 443
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From: International
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I have emailed PL to see what they have to say in terms of enclosure needed for the 12 SI.
Obviously, the idea to use an aperiodic membrane in front of the woofer is so bad, nobody even cares to comment? This would make the installation soooo much easier.
Amlin, there appear to be quite a number of shops in Switzerland who claim to have the 12 SI in Stock. They sell it for a very reasonable price I think, around $400. I'll see if they really have it available once I get the installation issue sorted out ...
I'm also a bit confused about enclosure size. Stevie tells me he's done the math and that I should use a 15-20 liter enclosure (= 0.7 cubic foot). Adam is using it in a 1.25ft enclosure. Sooo ... what's the right size in case I really can't use that aperiodic membrane thing?
Obviously, the idea to use an aperiodic membrane in front of the woofer is so bad, nobody even cares to comment?
This would make the installation soooo much easier.Amlin, there appear to be quite a number of shops in Switzerland who claim to have the 12 SI in Stock. They sell it for a very reasonable price I think, around $400. I'll see if they really have it available once I get the installation issue sorted out ...
I'm also a bit confused about enclosure size. Stevie tells me he's done the math and that I should use a 15-20 liter enclosure (= 0.7 cubic foot). Adam is using it in a 1.25ft enclosure. Sooo ... what's the right size in case I really can't use that aperiodic membrane thing?
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 443
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From: International
Btw ... I've just been browsing through the PL Forum and found several posts where the people from PL say that the 12SI doesn't work in a sealed enclosure
Ahhhhh ... if only that membrane thingy would work ...
Ahhhhh ... if only that membrane thingy would work ...
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Taipei
amlin423,
I found that Japan seems to have more reasonable street price than Taiwan during my price research in Aisa area. The street price I got in Tokyo was less than 50,000 Yen. Probably it is because Alainte is very popular in Japan.
BabaBooey,
Some say that because of the thick and somewhat heavy flat panel, Aliante 8 Si is not so ideal a role as a woofer for the front stage. But I have not experience any Aliante 8's, so I don't know...
Regarding the ID Max box size. I got the very early batch of ID Max. At that moment, Matt Borgardt, aka ID Tech, suggested a 1.3 ft^3 sealed box was the box to go. My 1.25ft^3 Element Enclosure was not that far off. That's what I use it for.
For the Aliante 12 Si case, I think 1.25ft^3 should be the upper size limit with Aliante 12 Si, according to the PL technical discussion forum I read before.
Acctis,
Vented is what PL recommends. But you can not go wrong with sealed. I suggest you also check into PL's web and do some static research about the sealed vs. vented boxes being used in different intallations. Some installations even won events with sealed boxes.
Click Here ^_^
I found that Japan seems to have more reasonable street price than Taiwan during my price research in Aisa area. The street price I got in Tokyo was less than 50,000 Yen. Probably it is because Alainte is very popular in Japan.
BabaBooey,
Some say that because of the thick and somewhat heavy flat panel, Aliante 8 Si is not so ideal a role as a woofer for the front stage. But I have not experience any Aliante 8's, so I don't know...
Regarding the ID Max box size. I got the very early batch of ID Max. At that moment, Matt Borgardt, aka ID Tech, suggested a 1.3 ft^3 sealed box was the box to go. My 1.25ft^3 Element Enclosure was not that far off. That's what I use it for.
For the Aliante 12 Si case, I think 1.25ft^3 should be the upper size limit with Aliante 12 Si, according to the PL technical discussion forum I read before.
Acctis,
Vented is what PL recommends. But you can not go wrong with sealed. I suggest you also check into PL's web and do some static research about the sealed vs. vented boxes being used in different intallations. Some installations even won events with sealed boxes.
Click Here ^_^
Last edited by Adam_Peng; Aug 5, 2002 at 02:22 AM.