Subs
03-12-01, 12:30 PM
#1
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A buddy of mine is getting rid of a 10 inch Orion subwoofer and I was thinking of replacing the stock sub in my SC400 with it. I want to know if it is really worth it if I dont plan on adding an amplifier right away. (will I really notice a difference).
03-12-01, 04:46 PM
#2
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Ok...now WHY is he getting rid of the Orion sub? How many hours of usage? Also, what type of sound are you after in your car? Orion is more for SPL than Sound Quality, imo. I've had many "friends" offer subs to get rid of but I've listened to them before in their car...they sounded like crap and they needed the money to upgrade.
Percy
My first and only sub...Velodyne.
Percy
My first and only sub...Velodyne.
03-12-01, 05:59 PM
#3
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Hey Percy,
Thanks for the reply, a buddy of mine has a Velodyne in his house and swears by it. I didnt know they made subs for cars Ill look into it. Thanks. By the way the kind of sound im looking for is more refined and clear but I also like to have a little thump if you know what I mean.
Thanks for the reply, a buddy of mine has a Velodyne in his house and swears by it. I didnt know they made subs for cars Ill look into it. Thanks. By the way the kind of sound im looking for is more refined and clear but I also like to have a little thump if you know what I mean.
03-12-01, 08:50 PM
#4
Moderator - Electronics Forum
The Vels are expensive and they're only availble by special order. 100% deposit, non refundable, made to order. By the description, you sound like a SQ guy...welcome aboard! My first step would be to ditch the stock speakers and go with Dynaudio replacements. Custom baffles are needed (you can make them yourself) and the tear down instructions should be in the FAQ section of the ClubLexus board. Since 90% of the music spectrum deals with the midrange (and some highs), I'd suggest that you replace these first. Then worry about the thump. 
Percy
Percy
03-12-01, 09:29 PM
#5
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Percy...
I don't see speaker upgrade instructions in the FAQ. If it's there, could you point me to it?
I know you're a big Dynaudio proponent... is it the Mk220 set you recommend for the GS400? From autophile.com it looks like the set consists of the tweeters separate from the lower speakers... if so, how does that work with the front/rear because the separate tweeters wouldn't be needed for the rears.
I know I asked this before, sorry... but I'd like to know what exact set would be replacements for the stock speakers (6 of 'em - the sub can come later).
I know you're a big Dynaudio proponent... is it the Mk220 set you recommend for the GS400? From autophile.com it looks like the set consists of the tweeters separate from the lower speakers... if so, how does that work with the front/rear because the separate tweeters wouldn't be needed for the rears.
I know I asked this before, sorry... but I'd like to know what exact set would be replacements for the stock speakers (6 of 'em - the sub can come later).
03-13-01, 06:41 AM
#6
Moderator - Electronics Forum
You'll need the system 240 MK II, which utilizes a 7 inch midwoofer. The crossover and tweeter also come with the package. For the rears you'll only need the midwoofer (MW160). Drop these in and you'll be wasting the ML system!
Percy
Percy
03-13-01, 07:36 AM
#7
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Thanks Percy. This audio stuff is really a pain because I've yet to find a dealer in Atlanta besides Circuit City or HiFi Buys and I'm not sure I want them doing an upgrade and I'm sure they don't sell DynAudio!
Just to be clear... the 240 MK II set would include 2 midwoofers for the front doors, and two tweeters that would fit in the A pillars?
And the 160MW set would be just the two midwoofers for the rear door is that right?
Also, you say they're 7" - I thought the stock speakers are only 5.25" - how do 7" speakers fit?? I've seen you mention creating custom baffles, although I haven't the faintest idea how to do this. I'm ok with a saw and very basic wood work or plastic/foam, or whatever.
Just to be clear... the 240 MK II set would include 2 midwoofers for the front doors, and two tweeters that would fit in the A pillars?
And the 160MW set would be just the two midwoofers for the rear door is that right?
Also, you say they're 7" - I thought the stock speakers are only 5.25" - how do 7" speakers fit?? I've seen you mention creating custom baffles, although I haven't the faintest idea how to do this. I'm ok with a saw and very basic wood work or plastic/foam, or whatever.
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03-13-01, 09:10 AM
#8
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Stay away from both of those places. They STINK. You'll be exposing your car to some teenage kid who will try to figure out "on the fly" how to tear the car apart. PLUS it opens up the high possibility of theft since they know EXACTLY what you have in the car and EXACTLY where you live. I've heard of some "pro" installers that will "deinstall" their product the same night and try to resell it the next day. It's happened.
The System 240MK II will have 2 midwoofers, 2 MD100 tweets and 2 crossovers. That'll do it for the fronts. The rears will only need MW160 midwoofers. Baffles aren't that hard to make. Just take out the old enclosure that has the 4 inch speaker, use the enclosure as a template (trace and cut the general shape) and then bolt the baffle that you just made onto the stock speaker location. Just don't forget to cut out the hole for the speaker to go through!
You'll also need a 1 inch tall/thick spacer ring for the midwoofer. Metra carries these and you can pick up a pair for about 13 bucks. The local install shops have these in stock. The spacer is mandatory...otherwise you window won't roll down. Or it may roll down but the window will break since it just hit the magnet of the speaker.
Percy
The System 240MK II will have 2 midwoofers, 2 MD100 tweets and 2 crossovers. That'll do it for the fronts. The rears will only need MW160 midwoofers. Baffles aren't that hard to make. Just take out the old enclosure that has the 4 inch speaker, use the enclosure as a template (trace and cut the general shape) and then bolt the baffle that you just made onto the stock speaker location. Just don't forget to cut out the hole for the speaker to go through!
You'll also need a 1 inch tall/thick spacer ring for the midwoofer. Metra carries these and you can pick up a pair for about 13 bucks. The local install shops have these in stock. The spacer is mandatory...otherwise you window won't roll down. Or it may roll down but the window will break since it just hit the magnet of the speaker. Percy
03-13-01, 03:10 PM
#9
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Bitkahuna...
the stockers are dinky 4"ers..... I never realized how small those suckers were till I opened up my door panels! school is still getting in the way of putting in my speakers...hopefully next week...
the stockers are dinky 4"ers..... I never realized how small those suckers were till I opened up my door panels! school is still getting in the way of putting in my speakers...hopefully next week...
03-13-01, 08:00 PM
#11
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Percy, thanks for the info, but while I'm ok with electronics and mechanical things, I've done NO audio work in a car, so bear with me.
'Baffle' - have no idea what this is for, what is would be made of. Is there one in there already?
What does a 'crossover' consist of, and does it go in with the midwoofer, or someplace else?
Also, it's still now clear to me how I could fit a 7" speaker into a space designed for a 4" one!
Sorry for the neophyte questions... and thanks for your patience.
'Baffle' - have no idea what this is for, what is would be made of. Is there one in there already?
What does a 'crossover' consist of, and does it go in with the midwoofer, or someplace else?
Also, it's still now clear to me how I could fit a 7" speaker into a space designed for a 4" one!
Sorry for the neophyte questions... and thanks for your patience.
03-13-01, 09:30 PM
#12
Moderator - Electronics Forum
A baffle is just a board for the speaker to mount on. Serves two purposes. The first one is already mentioned (mounting surface). The other purpose is to seperate the airspace between the front and rear of the speaker. Otherwise you'll get speaker cancellation which will reduce your midbass significantly. You can make one from Birch, Maple, Medium Density Fiberboard (recommended...very easy to work with) or other non resonant material. You'd have to make one of these yourself but it's not difficult. Just take your time and do it right.
A crossover is just some components to pass high and low frequency signals, depending on what section the crossover you're talking about. For the midwoofer, the low and mid frequencies are passed, while the high frequencies are blocked. It's the other way around for the tweeter. If you were to take a crossover for a tweeter to it's simplest form, you'll find that it's a capacitor that does all the filtering. (6db/oct slope). This is necessary since you don't want any low frequencies being directed to the tweeter...otherwise it'll burn out quickly! With the midwoofer, if it's taken to it's simplest form (6db/oct slope), it's going to be an inductor or coil that will do all the filtering. Once when you get into high order filters such as 12db/oct, 18db/oct, 24db/oct, etc, then you'll find that they'll use combinations of both inductors and capactors for filtering.
Some crossovers will have resistors to knock down the level of the tweeter for better matching. This is so that the tweeter won't overpower the midwoofer, ie, sound too "bright".
As for fitting in a 7 inch midwoofer into a 4 inch space...you really aren't doing this. You're dealing with the same amount of mounting area. Take apart your door sometime and you'll find that the 4 incher doesn't even take up much space at all! You'll be making a mounting plate/baffle so that you can use a 7 incher in the stock location. Much better sound and well worth the effort involved. Be prepared to whip the ML system when you're done. (evil grin)
Percy
A crossover is just some components to pass high and low frequency signals, depending on what section the crossover you're talking about. For the midwoofer, the low and mid frequencies are passed, while the high frequencies are blocked. It's the other way around for the tweeter. If you were to take a crossover for a tweeter to it's simplest form, you'll find that it's a capacitor that does all the filtering. (6db/oct slope). This is necessary since you don't want any low frequencies being directed to the tweeter...otherwise it'll burn out quickly! With the midwoofer, if it's taken to it's simplest form (6db/oct slope), it's going to be an inductor or coil that will do all the filtering. Once when you get into high order filters such as 12db/oct, 18db/oct, 24db/oct, etc, then you'll find that they'll use combinations of both inductors and capactors for filtering.
Some crossovers will have resistors to knock down the level of the tweeter for better matching. This is so that the tweeter won't overpower the midwoofer, ie, sound too "bright".
As for fitting in a 7 inch midwoofer into a 4 inch space...you really aren't doing this. You're dealing with the same amount of mounting area. Take apart your door sometime and you'll find that the 4 incher doesn't even take up much space at all! You'll be making a mounting plate/baffle so that you can use a 7 incher in the stock location. Much better sound and well worth the effort involved. Be prepared to whip the ML system when you're done. (evil grin)
Percy
10-12-01, 08:48 AM
#13
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Veloooos
This is for all you guys out there with GS installs...and prob percy, the all velodyne knowledgable...
anyway...although i had started wiring the car a long time ago, i havent finished the job yet iwth my car...i want such a clean install that im ready to hand it over to one of 3 places to just do my trunk...in any case...i have 2 of the velodyne 10s..sitting here and one of the shops said he refused to do a sealed box with them and would call velodyne for specs on how to do a bandpass with them. He , understandably, wants all the bass where it belongs: in the cabin by lining up the ports into the stock sub locaation. Now im not so sure if this is recommended with these subs at all...what has everyone else done? any ideas? The guy is expensive, but knows his stuff..only works on high end cars basically. I know another guy that might not be so in the know on the audio end as far as the orders of the bandpass box, etc, but will give me more for my money on the looks of the install in the trunk...thanks guys for your input.
anyway...although i had started wiring the car a long time ago, i havent finished the job yet iwth my car...i want such a clean install that im ready to hand it over to one of 3 places to just do my trunk...in any case...i have 2 of the velodyne 10s..sitting here and one of the shops said he refused to do a sealed box with them and would call velodyne for specs on how to do a bandpass with them. He , understandably, wants all the bass where it belongs: in the cabin by lining up the ports into the stock sub locaation. Now im not so sure if this is recommended with these subs at all...what has everyone else done? any ideas? The guy is expensive, but knows his stuff..only works on high end cars basically. I know another guy that might not be so in the know on the audio end as far as the orders of the bandpass box, etc, but will give me more for my money on the looks of the install in the trunk...thanks guys for your input.
10-12-01, 12:00 PM
#14
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Themi,
Plain and simple...DO NOT USE THEM IN BANDPASS CONFIG. They'll screw up and the circuity will try to correct for sound quality. Car Stereo and Security, a large format British magazine, did a review on the Velodyne DF12sc. They tried the bandpass and the time domain was so smeared (muddy, yucky sound) that it wasn't even worth it. However, for Sound Quality, you still can't beat these subs.
You're better off using just one sub in the stock location. Much easier that way and you can sell the other sub to any other of the SQ guys on the board!
Why bandpass?!?!?!
Percy
Plain and simple...DO NOT USE THEM IN BANDPASS CONFIG. They'll screw up and the circuity will try to correct for sound quality. Car Stereo and Security, a large format British magazine, did a review on the Velodyne DF12sc. They tried the bandpass and the time domain was so smeared (muddy, yucky sound) that it wasn't even worth it. However, for Sound Quality, you still can't beat these subs.
You're better off using just one sub in the stock location. Much easier that way and you can sell the other sub to any other of the SQ guys on the board!
Why bandpass?!?!?!
Percy
10-12-01, 12:15 PM
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WHY BANDPASS is excatly what i was thinking...
So you think I would better off with the one velo in the stock location as opposed to the 2 of them in a sealed box? I know I would have that one firing into the cabin, so im wondering what the difference would be with both subs firing into the trunk would be and that one sub (freeair or sealed attached to the top).
Also...what did u do about what seems to be a too low crossover point for the sub output out of the stock amp? Anyway to recover that signal?
So you think I would better off with the one velo in the stock location as opposed to the 2 of them in a sealed box? I know I would have that one firing into the cabin, so im wondering what the difference would be with both subs firing into the trunk would be and that one sub (freeair or sealed attached to the top).
Also...what did u do about what seems to be a too low crossover point for the sub output out of the stock amp? Anyway to recover that signal?