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IS F (2008-2014) Discussion topics related to the IS F model

Still have inner tire wear even with the USRS!

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Old 09-07-17, 03:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ModInJapan View Post
Inner tire wear is usually from out of spec camber/toe. Even.01 deg can make a difference on the wear.
Also mind you, lexus designed the F to handle better so the OEM specs have more carmber than normal.
If you want absolutely no inner tire wear, get your camber and toe as close to zero but don't expect the car to handle as good from factory.

specs



USRS was designed to help with steering response, not to eliminate inner tire wear

hope that helps
BS on the camber. Only toe makes a difference.

No, the USRS and the bushings sold by Figs were not designed to help with steering response. They are both designed to reduce toe changes under braking and acceleration. If you look at the video Figs shot of the OEM bushing responding to braking you can't miss it.

Last edited by lobuxracer; 09-07-17 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 09-07-17, 03:18 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Helo58 View Post
The most recent alignment in May 2017 shows
  • Camber: LF -1.1, RF -1.6
  • Caster: LF 8.0, RF 8.0
  • Toe: LF -0.05, RF -0.01
Left Front
Right Front
Your toe numbers are crap. Zero is not -0.05 and -0.01. That's toed out and will cause the wear you are experiencing. Your camber would be better if balanced, but it's not the issue here. What is concerning is, if you did balance the camber, your caster would be unbalanced.
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Old 09-07-17, 09:08 AM   #33
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Caster is not a tire wearing item unless you spend your life in a parking lot. In states with crowned roads for rain runoff it is not uncommon to increase caster on the right side a full degree or more so they drive straight on crowned roads and may barely drift left on a flat road.

Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.

The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.

Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12 caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
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Old 09-07-17, 02:39 PM   #34
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Caster is not a tire wearing item unless you spend your life in a parking lot. In states with crowned roads for rain runoff it is not uncommon to increase caster on the right side a full degree or more so they drive straight on crowned roads and may barely drift left on a flat road.

Camber will show some wear if excessive and the car is never pushed into the corners. These aren't bias ply tires with stiff sidewalls but wider section width tires will tell a story quickly.

The greater wear factors are pressure and toe. Too many neglect these and ruin tires from simply not paying attention. These cars having near equal weight distribution fore and aft leads some to running equal tire pressures in spite of door plate stickers and load ratings. Often times the rears have the center blown out from over inflation while the front loose their edges from under inflation. The key here is to get a solid starting point and monitor wear and by looking at the wear understand the difference between scrub wear, over/under inflation, and toe and camber wear. They can be read by looking at the tires. Sill plate values typically assume MAX load while in fact most of these cars run around with a single occupant.

Last comment on Caster, ever notice the crazy lean angle on the German cars while the wheels are turned? Some run 8 to 12 caster so they track at speed. That said a degree of difference means nothing to tire wear. Where the tires get slaughtered on these cars is the parking lot from excessive scrub from caster and toe out on turns. Remember the inner wheel has to turn sharper to complete a tight turn. Thus the parking lot can be a tire killer for those spending a lot of time there.
Did you look at the numbers for the IS F? Lots of caster compared to previous Toyota sports cars. Have you weighed one? The weight is all on the driver's front corner before the driver gets in the car, and it's not a small bias at all. Camber on a street tire under 2.5 degrees is very unlikely to cause edge wear, but a small problem with toe will. I run -0.4 degrees on both sides in the front and with Figs polyurethane bushings on both LCA joints I have no issues with edge wear running sill plate pressure. I've also spent a lot of time trying to solve alignment and wear issues - the Supra "lance alignment" is me. So is this.
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Old 09-07-17, 02:44 PM   #35
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Your toe numbers are crap. Zero is not -0.05 and -0.01. That's toed out and will cause the wear you are experiencing. Your camber would be better if balanced, but it's not the issue here. What is concerning is, if you did balance the camber, your caster would be unbalanced.
I have been led to believe, by some who did not have MY best interests at heart, that alignment within the range of specified values for the car was sufficient. Until now, I have driven cars where a set of tires easily lasted 30,000+ miles so I never questioned it. If you had asked me two weeks ago if there was a meaningful difference between 0.01 and -0.02 toe, I would have said probably not. Obviously, I agree that -0.05 and -0.01 is not zero toe. How precisely can/should they make it? Is it possible to get a perfect 0.00 on both sides? If so, how long might it last (assuming no large potholes or impacts) at the 0.00 setting? By correcting toe, will this affect camber or caster on ISF suspensions? Are these adjustments intertwined on the ISF or can all three be made independently of one another? As I understand it, there is no camber or caster adjustment for the ISF. To do this, alternate parts must be used. Is this the case?

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Old 09-07-17, 03:31 PM   #36
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Toe is easily set to whatever you like. It does not impact caster or camber. Small differences in toe can make big differences in tire wear. If your alignment place sells tires, there's a bit of a conflict of interest in how they set up your alignment since wearing tires is a revenue generator for them, and they'll make excuses about how this is a performance car, or these cars are notorious for this, or whatever else excuse they can pawn off on the unsuspecting owner. The fact is, if you get the alignment right for the roads, tires, and driver; you'll get the wear you're willing to accept with the performance you have chosen. I am willing to accept some inside edge wear, but not what the factory delivers, and if you are on the OEM bushings, a really diligent tech will set you slightly toed-in because the dynamic toe on this car required a slight toe-in if you want the tires to wear evenly. The harder and more frequently you brake the more you need toe-in because the suspension toes out under braking by design with the factory bushings.

With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
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Old 09-07-17, 04:01 PM   #37
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I saw fore aft distribution but no, did not know left was heavier. The 350 is 52/48 the F 54/46 IIRC??

If left front is heavier, I would suggest dummy weight or rider in vehicle during alignment. Most shops will accommodate if asked. The caster is in the upper 8, which is true of both cars...

It sounds like you have your wear issues resolved. How often does your vehicle get pushed through the corners?

My daily commute has just enough that it keeps the everything in check... I'll check the link later...
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Old 09-07-17, 04:16 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by lobuxracer View Post
Toe is easily set to whatever you like. It does not impact caster or camber. Small differences in toe can make big differences in tire wear. If your alignment place sells tires, there's a bit of a conflict of interest in how they set up your alignment since wearing tires is a revenue generator for them, and they'll make excuses about how this is a performance car, or these cars are notorious for this, or whatever else excuse they can pawn off on the unsuspecting owner. The fact is, if you get the alignment right for the roads, tires, and driver; you'll get the wear you're willing to accept with the performance you have chosen. I am willing to accept some inside edge wear, but not what the factory delivers, and if you are on the OEM bushings, a really diligent tech will set you slightly toed-in because the dynamic toe on this car required a slight toe-in if you want the tires to wear evenly. The harder and more frequently you brake the more you need toe-in because the suspension toes out under braking by design with the factory bushings.

With the USRS, you should be able to set toe anywhere from zero to -0.4 on both sides and be OK with more edge wear as the number goes more negative. But the fact they adjusted it and it wasn't even balanced tells me the tech was just looking for green numbers and not looking at how to set up the car for you.
Thanks Lance. I just got done reading the other thread that you linked above. I appreciate you starting that one and your input on this one. I have to agree with you regarding the tech. It is now obvious to me that "we'll shoot for zero" is code for too lazy to do it properly. I assume that adjusting both sides for 0.00 toe while keeping the wheel centered is more difficult than just getting them close to 0.00.

I drive like I rode my motorcycle, so I brake later and harder than most. I do have the USRS installed, so I'll start with the zero toe and door sill pressures. If my wear still occurs on the inner edge, I will try a slight toe in as I am not too concerned about turn-in response.
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Old 09-07-17, 04:27 PM   #39
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To Lobuxracer's point; the frame and alignment shop I worked at did not sell tires and we had customers from the tire shops that didn't want to fix the issue, just set to spec and forget it (sell more tires). And ya, I learned how to read tires pretty well.

Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
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Old 09-07-17, 05:09 PM   #40
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To Lobuxracer's point; the frame and alignment shop I worked at did not sell tires and we had customers from the tire shops that didn't want to fix the issue, just set to spec and forget it (sell more tires). And ya, I learned how to read tires pretty well.

Nothing against them, but go with a small shop or at least one with a reputable owner and staff. We did a lot of exotic cars so it was fun. Well until you realized exotic car shook like it did because the loose nut behind the wheel did Bat-brake turns to promote a slide and b$itched about us being unable to balance tires properly... lol
Agreed on the independent shop. Until I locate one, hopefully I can work with the shop now to get the settings correct. I'm not crazy about trashing a set of tires for inner edge wear if it is preventable. I know to do so, compromises must be made that adversely affect handling, but as my DD handling isn't the primary concern. If anyone knows of a good alignment shop in the Charlotte NC area, let me know. Thanks!
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Old 09-07-17, 06:36 PM   #41
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JM2C but you might be reading more into that than there is. Most are not pushing their car hard enough to notice loss of turn in from those numbers. And if you do push hard enough, you will be loosing tread for different reasons on a different place on those tires!
Everything from here down is for tread life.

You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...

That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2 for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1 (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.

Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
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Old 09-07-17, 07:05 PM   #42
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JM2C but you might be reading more into that than there is. Most are not pushing their car hard enough to notice loss of turn in from those numbers. And if you do push hard enough, you will be loosing tread for different reasons on a different place on those tires!
Everything from here down is for tread life.

You know the zero toe has not done you justice for tire life this far. I suggest you toe it in and try it. Remember repeatability is a huge deal here and 4 deciminal places out is not anything that is repeatable much less measurable on a DD with rubber bushings.... Meaning once all readings are taken and if I turn the wheels left and right and bounce on the suspension it is very likely that none of the numbers go back to where they were...

That said a vehicle that is in good shape should easily return to +/- 0.2 for camber roughly speaking +/-0.1 (6") for toe. The problem is the techs don't take the time to see if the vehicle and measurement system do this. Same example; bounce on the car 5x and get 5 readings. They don't have time. And this is with a vehicle with good bushings, ball joints, tie rods.... In short, tech time and set up matters, once it is close it is the fine tweaks that can make difference between getting 20 vs 40,000 from a DD tire set. What is funny about this statement is even a care with loose suspension can be set up to get fair mileage.

Now add in all the other variables about road surface, driver, vehicle usage, loading...
Dead on the mark. Well said. On the upside, the USRS is a polyurethane bushing, not rubber, so it really does do better with repeatability. Indeed it isn't spherical ball joint accurate, but for street duty and long tire life, it gets you in a better starting position than the OEM doughnut bushing. For real, it is fluid filled. Not even remotely like any performance bushing I've ever seen.
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Old 09-08-17, 12:11 AM   #43
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Just had my alignment done after installing the USRS. I'm hoping for even tire wear too. Here's the result.



How does it look?
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Old 09-08-17, 08:04 AM   #44
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Looks good for tire wear. Slight toe-in at the front will be less likely to wear the inside edges. It was seriously toed in initially. Were you having problems with inside edge wear before? With the initial numbers I see, you shouldn't have.
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Old 09-08-17, 08:24 AM   #45
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Perhaps the bushing swap did that creating toe values that didn't previously exist. It does add caster so it changed toe.

Any chance the alignment As Found values are from before USRS install? I'd guess not. Just keep an eye on your tires and pressure and see how they do.

Edit: do the aftermarket USRS bushings come with the offset like the OEM? OEM, each side for both 250/350/F come with 0 offset and a + and - 20 offset. So 6 different part numbers total per chassis for that bushing.
What is interesting is the three listed above use the same lower arm but the F has a different PN rear bushing than X50 chassis. Like maybe the rubber is just a different durometer?

Adding to that (IIRC) the LCA X50 F-Sport is the same as the ISF stock... None F-Sport LCA spans X50 and GS chassis... The miracle of Where Used.... =D

Last edited by 2013FSport; 09-08-17 at 10:28 AM.
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