Lexus vs BMW
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 271
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Great.
More defending of BMW's honor from jbayse99
In the end :
2014 IS > F30 3 series in chassis
F30 > 2014 IS in powertrains
Anything else is just revolving around the same 2 points.
Fact : BMW is locked into the F30 chassis for the next 5-7 years until a brand new 3 series chassis can be developed ( considering typical German car lifecycles.)
Fact : brand new Lexus powertrains are just 1-2 years away
More defending of BMW's honor from jbayse99
In the end :
2014 IS > F30 3 series in chassis
F30 > 2014 IS in powertrains
Anything else is just revolving around the same 2 points.
Fact : BMW is locked into the F30 chassis for the next 5-7 years until a brand new 3 series chassis can be developed ( considering typical German car lifecycles.)
Fact : brand new Lexus powertrains are just 1-2 years away
Go ahead- let's hear some excuses. BTW, you don't have any of these cars, so you being in this discussion is- unnecessary.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 916
Likes: 8
From: CA
No, he included it- you just missed it.
In MT's most recent comparison, the 335i beat the IS 350 in every single performance measure, to include acceleration, handling and braking.
Go ahead- let's hear some excuses. BTW, you don't have any of these cars, so you being in this discussion is- unnecessary.
In MT's most recent comparison, the 335i beat the IS 350 in every single performance measure, to include acceleration, handling and braking.
Go ahead- let's hear some excuses. BTW, you don't have any of these cars, so you being in this discussion is- unnecessary.
"And yet, the M Sport package fails to rectify our complaints about the F30 chassis. There’s more movement from both front and rear axles than expected, more than its predecessor exhibited and, notably, more than either the ATS or the IS displays. Even with the optional suspension, body control falters. Bumps that the Lexus absorbs and the Cadillac shrugs off with a single succinct compression and rebound make the BMW pitch and roll and fight to stay on-line."
You know that right?
I've driven the 2IS for a few days and own the 3IS Fsport. If you haven't had a chance to put the Fsport in Sport + mode and throw it through some twisting roads then you should. I think you'd be surprised.
Last edited by Glashub; Jul 18, 2013 at 10:01 PM.
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 271
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In my comparisons, I am referring to the old 2IS350 with the base suspension, versus the new 335i also with the base suspension.
I normally only test the base suspension because I personally prefer a good ride.
I have test driven the new 3IS in F Sport with electronic dampers, but never the new 335i with the Sports suspension.
The old base IS350 handles much more securely than the new standard base 335i, which is too floaty and insecure at the limit.
Glashub's quote of Car and Driver Page 3, third paragraph: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...m-sport-page-3
sums it up perfectly when they say: "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters".
The new 335i's damping [shock absorber] control is poor.
Exactly which model and suspension grade of old 2IS and new 335i do you own?
The 2IS350 with normal or Sports suspension, and the new 335i also with the normal or the Sports suspension?
Even with the optional Sports suspension, Car and Driver Magazine agrees with me that the 335i's body control is poor.
Btw, contrary to reports that the new 3IS is only 35 to 50 lbs heavier - the new 3IS is actually 100-200 lbs heavier depending on model, so the new 3IS is not as accelerative in the straight line, or around corners as the old 2IS.
So far, all these cars including the 3 Series, IS and C Class have increased in size and weight over the years, and this is actually particularly detrimental to their handling. Meanwhile, the straight line acceleration can be compensated for by increasing capacity, or adding turbos etc...
I normally only test the base suspension because I personally prefer a good ride.
I have test driven the new 3IS in F Sport with electronic dampers, but never the new 335i with the Sports suspension.
The old base IS350 handles much more securely than the new standard base 335i, which is too floaty and insecure at the limit.
Glashub's quote of Car and Driver Page 3, third paragraph: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...m-sport-page-3
sums it up perfectly when they say: "Even with the optional suspension, body control falters".
The new 335i's damping [shock absorber] control is poor.
Exactly which model and suspension grade of old 2IS and new 335i do you own?
The 2IS350 with normal or Sports suspension, and the new 335i also with the normal or the Sports suspension?
Even with the optional Sports suspension, Car and Driver Magazine agrees with me that the 335i's body control is poor.
Btw, contrary to reports that the new 3IS is only 35 to 50 lbs heavier - the new 3IS is actually 100-200 lbs heavier depending on model, so the new 3IS is not as accelerative in the straight line, or around corners as the old 2IS.
So far, all these cars including the 3 Series, IS and C Class have increased in size and weight over the years, and this is actually particularly detrimental to their handling. Meanwhile, the straight line acceleration can be compensated for by increasing capacity, or adding turbos etc...
Yes, the car in the comparison had the optional sport suspension. I have the DHP, which adds variable sport steering. It is designed to improve feel of the road. It works well.
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 89
From: Singapore
No, he included it- you just missed it.
In MT's most recent comparison, the 335i beat the IS 350 in every single performance measure, to include acceleration, handling and braking.
Go ahead- let's hear some excuses. BTW, you don't have any of these cars, so you being in this discussion is- unnecessary.
In MT's most recent comparison, the 335i beat the IS 350 in every single performance measure, to include acceleration, handling and braking.
Go ahead- let's hear some excuses. BTW, you don't have any of these cars, so you being in this discussion is- unnecessary.
YET, it lost in the slalom despite its advantages in skidpad,accleration and braking.
Skidpad/Braking--largely due to tires/wheels. Nothing to do with chassis
Accleration--powertrains, again non-chassis related.
What you've posted actually ILLUSTRATES my point. BMW can dress up the F30 chassis with better grippier tires, slap on a more powerful engine but the chassis still betrays it in the acid test : SLALOM.
Slalom is the final summation of a car's overall handling ability.
Despite crappier tires, a 6 year old engine and despite being heavier, the IS still spanked the 335i on the slalom.Despite all its advantages, the 3 series still LOST.
If that's not a perfect illustration of the superiority of the 2014 IS chassis, then you are just simply ignoring facts and basic universally accepted car dynamic principles, all in an effort to live in your own little world where BMW 3 series is still the best handling car in it segment.
It's not and you should just accept it. Console yourself that your car is faster, roomier and prettier and sells better--isn't that enough?
Last edited by natnut; Jul 18, 2013 at 10:23 PM.
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
YET, it lost in the slalom despite its advantages in skidpad,accleration and braking.
Skidpad/Braking--largely due to tires/wheels. Nothing to do with chassis
Accleration--powertrains, again non-chassis related.
What you've posted actually ILLUSTRATES my point. BMW can dress up the F30 chassis with better grippier tires, slap on a more power engine but the chassis still betrays it in the acid test : SLALOM.
Slalom is the final summation of a car's overall handling ability.
Despite crappier tires, a 6 year old engine, increased weight, the IS still spanked the 335i on the slalom.Despite all its advantages, the 3 series still LOST.
If that's not a perfect illustration of the superiority of the 2014 IS chassis, then you are just simply ignoring facts and basic universally accepted car dynamic principles, all in an effort to live in your own little world where BMW 3 series is the best handling car in it segment.
Skidpad/Braking--largely due to tires/wheels. Nothing to do with chassis
Accleration--powertrains, again non-chassis related.
What you've posted actually ILLUSTRATES my point. BMW can dress up the F30 chassis with better grippier tires, slap on a more power engine but the chassis still betrays it in the acid test : SLALOM.
Slalom is the final summation of a car's overall handling ability.
Despite crappier tires, a 6 year old engine, increased weight, the IS still spanked the 335i on the slalom.Despite all its advantages, the 3 series still LOST.
If that's not a perfect illustration of the superiority of the 2014 IS chassis, then you are just simply ignoring facts and basic universally accepted car dynamic principles, all in an effort to live in your own little world where BMW 3 series is the best handling car in it segment.
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 89
From: Singapore
Faster track times--depends on which track
Tracks with more straights and gentle sweeping corners, 3 series might win
More technical tracks with abrupt angle changes and multiple transitions, the 3 series loses as its powertrain advantage is negated and its inability to rapidly switch directions ( a chassis weakness) is exposed.
Tracks with more straights and gentle sweeping corners, 3 series might win
More technical tracks with abrupt angle changes and multiple transitions, the 3 series loses as its powertrain advantage is negated and its inability to rapidly switch directions ( a chassis weakness) is exposed.
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Faster track times--depends on which track
Tracks with more straights and gentle sweeping corners, 3 series might win
More technical tracks with abrupt angle changes and multiple transitions, the 3 series loses as its powertrain advantage is negated and its inability to rapidly switch directions ( a chassis weakness) is exposed.
Tracks with more straights and gentle sweeping corners, 3 series might win
More technical tracks with abrupt angle changes and multiple transitions, the 3 series loses as its powertrain advantage is negated and its inability to rapidly switch directions ( a chassis weakness) is exposed.
The only way the IS350 could ever have a prayer on a track is if Lexus comes out with a Nurburgring Package like the LFA has.
Ramon and Glashub, both of you exit this thread
This is a warning to all. Keep this thread on topic and posts constructive. No more direct personal attacks or further actions will be taken
This is a warning to all. Keep this thread on topic and posts constructive. No more direct personal attacks or further actions will be taken
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 360
Likes: 6
From: SG
Natnut,
Finally tested both IS250 Fsport and 300h. Buona Vista isn't quite the track I have driven on (Sepang, PG, some down under ones etc), but was useful to give a glimpse of the 3IS.
Positives...nice feel in sports +, F sport instrument display, nav display clarity, rear seat legroom and comfort, engine gearbox responsiveness for an NA, subdued engine noise compared to GS250, surprising smoothness of the hybrid '4' pot, rear legroom, hybrids 60% fuel consumption advantage as recorded by both cars during my test.
Negatives...lacks the feeling of oomph (even compared to F20 118i), tire noise on coarse surfaces, shiny plastic on Center console, lack of torque in both versions, ASC sounds like car has 2 motors, run flats on hybrid (though it rode surprisingly well) Hybrid's keenness on revs to make up for torque shortage.
Spent last two weeks in Europe driving modern diesels. Didn't like them but the torqiness they posess is is missing from the hybrid. Refinement is great till engine revs.
My personal verdict....not sure if its good enough to challenge BMW. Sure, some tests show objectively better figures for the IS, but in feel its not quite there. Plus the BMW's feel a lot faster.
Still, 300h would be my choice. Was hoping it was a game changer for Lexus though.
Finally tested both IS250 Fsport and 300h. Buona Vista isn't quite the track I have driven on (Sepang, PG, some down under ones etc), but was useful to give a glimpse of the 3IS.
Positives...nice feel in sports +, F sport instrument display, nav display clarity, rear seat legroom and comfort, engine gearbox responsiveness for an NA, subdued engine noise compared to GS250, surprising smoothness of the hybrid '4' pot, rear legroom, hybrids 60% fuel consumption advantage as recorded by both cars during my test.
Negatives...lacks the feeling of oomph (even compared to F20 118i), tire noise on coarse surfaces, shiny plastic on Center console, lack of torque in both versions, ASC sounds like car has 2 motors, run flats on hybrid (though it rode surprisingly well) Hybrid's keenness on revs to make up for torque shortage.
Spent last two weeks in Europe driving modern diesels. Didn't like them but the torqiness they posess is is missing from the hybrid. Refinement is great till engine revs.
My personal verdict....not sure if its good enough to challenge BMW. Sure, some tests show objectively better figures for the IS, but in feel its not quite there. Plus the BMW's feel a lot faster.
Still, 300h would be my choice. Was hoping it was a game changer for Lexus though.
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
Likes: 89
From: Singapore
Thanks webra for your input.
I'm vacillating between a second hand GS450h F-Sport, a new IS300h F-Sport or holding our for the upcoming Lexus RC coupe. The GS450h drivetrain is simply bulletproof and doesn't have the slight lag from standstill that the IS300h has but the IS300h's cheaper running costs are also very tempting.
As well as the fact that USB( Exceed Blue in Singapore) is only available in the IS F-Sport.
What did you think of the IS250 F-Sport's looks? I thought it was drool inducing.
I'm vacillating between a second hand GS450h F-Sport, a new IS300h F-Sport or holding our for the upcoming Lexus RC coupe. The GS450h drivetrain is simply bulletproof and doesn't have the slight lag from standstill that the IS300h has but the IS300h's cheaper running costs are also very tempting.
As well as the fact that USB( Exceed Blue in Singapore) is only available in the IS F-Sport.
What did you think of the IS250 F-Sport's looks? I thought it was drool inducing.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,683
Likes: 540
From: Ca
Use them as a rough guide only.
The only real way to ascertain the weight of the car is at a weight bridge.
2) Please use your commonsense:
E21, First generation, 1975–1983
E30, Second generation, 1981–1990
E36, Third generation, 1990–1998
E46, Fourth generation, 1998-2005
E90, Fifth generation, 2005–2012
F30, Sixth generation, 2012-.
Do you think the size and weight has increased over the generations?
Or do you think the weight has remained the same?
FYI, the new 335i is actually heavier than the outgoing model.
Most "true" car experts will tell you that the dynamics of the 3 Series is diminishing as a result.
Worse, because the new 335i is too softly damped, it is very insecure and loose around corners.
You need sports suspension to tie the 335i down, but that comes at a cost to the ride.
I have not driven the 335i Sports myself, but Car and Driver says that even with the optional suspension, the 335i still lacks body control.
In previous generations, the 3 Series did romp away with the handling, but not anymore.
The current 3 Series is very loosely suspended.
The new 3 Series no longer wins every time.
Sales of the 3 Series which peaked at 142,490 units across America in 2007, was only 99,602 last year.
The first 6 months of 2013 saw 3 Series sales at just 49,162, giving roughly 98,324 units for 2013.
The 3 Series is gradually diminishing to the competition...
Last edited by peteharvey; Jul 19, 2013 at 12:47 AM.
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 360
Likes: 6
From: SG
Thanks webra for your input.
I'm vacillating between a second hand GS450h F-Sport, a new IS300h F-Sport or holding our for the upcoming Lexus RC coupe. The GS450h drivetrain is simply bulletproof and doesn't have the slight lag from standstill that the IS300h has but the IS300h's cheaper running costs are also very tempting.
As well as the fact that USB( Exceed Blue in Singapore) is only available in the IS F-Sport.
What did you think of the IS250 F-Sport's looks? I thought it was drool inducing.
I'm vacillating between a second hand GS450h F-Sport, a new IS300h F-Sport or holding our for the upcoming Lexus RC coupe. The GS450h drivetrain is simply bulletproof and doesn't have the slight lag from standstill that the IS300h has but the IS300h's cheaper running costs are also very tempting.
As well as the fact that USB( Exceed Blue in Singapore) is only available in the IS F-Sport.
What did you think of the IS250 F-Sport's looks? I thought it was drool inducing.
On my tests the consumption figures were 6.2km/l vs 10.2 km/l. That's quite a difference!
The IS is a nice car. But I feel the GS is more accomplished overall.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,683
Likes: 540
From: Ca
Loved the looks. Not too bad once the plates are on, Like the Euro pics. Looks much much better in real life than in pics.
On my tests the consumption figures were 6.2km/l vs 10.2 km/l. That's quite a difference!
The IS is a nice car. But I feel the GS is more accomplished overall.
On my tests the consumption figures were 6.2km/l vs 10.2 km/l. That's quite a difference!
The IS is a nice car. But I feel the GS is more accomplished overall.
I only bought IS for my missus.
For myself, I'd go with GS350 because it cruises so much more quietly.
I've never test driven 450h, but I guess in view of its bottom end punch, quieter acceleration, and I don't corner fast with my increasing age - I will have to test drive the GS450h and give it a try.
But Lexus or BMW.
3IS or 4GS.
350 or 450 etc.
Thus far, none of these cars are perfect.
They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.
You could argue till you're blue in the face!
These are ultimately all wonderful cars, and you can't go wong whichever way you go to satisfy your individual tastes...
Last edited by peteharvey; Jul 19, 2013 at 03:12 AM.
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
1) Never interpret the weight quoted in the brochures and owners manuals for real.
Use them as a rough guide only.
The only real way to ascertain the weight of the car is at a weight bridge.
2) Please use your commonsense:
E21, First generation, 1975–1983
E30, Second generation, 1981–1990
E36, Third generation, 1990–1998
E46, Fourth generation, 1998-2005
E90, Fifth generation, 2005–2012
F30, Sixth generation, 2012-.
Do you think the size and weight has increased over the generations?
Or do you think the weight has remained the same?
FYI, the new 335i is actually heavier than the outgoing model.
Most "true" car experts will tell you that the dynamics of the 3 Series is diminishing as a result.
Worse, because the new 335i is too softly damped, it is very insecure and loose around corners.
You need sports suspension to tie the 335i down, but that comes at a cost to the ride.
I have not driven the 335i Sports myself, but Car and Driver says that even with the optional suspension, the 335i still lacks body control.
In previous generations, the 3 Series did romp away with the handling, but not anymore.
The current 3 Series is very loosely suspended.
The new 3 Series no longer wins every time.
Sales of the 3 Series which peaked at 142,490 units across America in 2007, was only 99,602 last year.
The first 6 months of 2013 saw 3 Series sales at just 49,162, giving roughly 98,324 units for 2013.
The 3 Series is gradually diminishing to the competition...
Use them as a rough guide only.
The only real way to ascertain the weight of the car is at a weight bridge.
2) Please use your commonsense:
E21, First generation, 1975–1983
E30, Second generation, 1981–1990
E36, Third generation, 1990–1998
E46, Fourth generation, 1998-2005
E90, Fifth generation, 2005–2012
F30, Sixth generation, 2012-.
Do you think the size and weight has increased over the generations?
Or do you think the weight has remained the same?
FYI, the new 335i is actually heavier than the outgoing model.
Most "true" car experts will tell you that the dynamics of the 3 Series is diminishing as a result.
Worse, because the new 335i is too softly damped, it is very insecure and loose around corners.
You need sports suspension to tie the 335i down, but that comes at a cost to the ride.
I have not driven the 335i Sports myself, but Car and Driver says that even with the optional suspension, the 335i still lacks body control.
In previous generations, the 3 Series did romp away with the handling, but not anymore.
The current 3 Series is very loosely suspended.
The new 3 Series no longer wins every time.
Sales of the 3 Series which peaked at 142,490 units across America in 2007, was only 99,602 last year.
The first 6 months of 2013 saw 3 Series sales at just 49,162, giving roughly 98,324 units for 2013.
The 3 Series is gradually diminishing to the competition...
Please use your "commonsense"
3-Series' sales have gone down approximately 30% from 07-12
Now, let's look at Lexus-
07- 54,933 sold in US & Japan
12- 27,708 sold in US & Japan
Lexus' IS sales went down approximately 50% from 07-12
Before you make the point- BUT WAIT! THE F30 CAME OUT IN 2012, SALES SHOULD HAVE SKYROCKETED!!!
Nearly all car sales went down. Look at the Mustang:
07- 134,626 sold in US & Japan
12- 82,995 sold in US & Japan
Mustang's sales went down approximately 40% from 07-12
Infiniti G same story... except Mercedes, theirs have all gone up in the US. Crazy.
BTW, the 335i is lighter than the previous gen. Not the 88 lbs BMW states, but it is lighter.
http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=598641