Why would an enthusiast want a slower transmission using 1950s technology?

 

(significantly shortened for ease-of-reading purposes)

i believe that a significant portion of my discussion was limited to the 2is, the g37, and the TL so as to limit the scope of this discussion - which i originally interpreted as to the three aforementioned vehicles. i also understand that you want to include the previous generation AMG/M/RS offerings from germany into this discussion (and not the current generation) for the sake of past generations' vehicles being comparable to today's standard. however, imo those cars were purpose-built street cars with race credentials, and to include them into the discussion would make the comparison more disparate than similar.

as for the g37 and the TL, again the 2009 iterations are much better than their earlier versions, but they've inherited similar characteristics and personalities in not only performance but also fit-and-finish. if i wanted to feel like i was operating a scientific calculator i'd opt for the TL: lots of technology, lots of buttons, but not a whole lot of soul. on the other hand, if i wanted my free-way on-ramps and highway pulls to yank my passengers and i back into our respective seats i'd opt for the g37: lots of torque, lots of space, and a bit more refined... but also a bit more portly.

my knock isn't on the iDrive system, but rather infiniti and acura's poor adaptation of it and the locations of the control ***** in their respective vehicles - in addition to the number of additional buttons. you figure with all the engineering and technological wizardry in these cars, these manufacturers could have found a way to make the center control console easier to use.

while you say that performance was never acura's priority, then i have to point you in the direction of their new TL commercials (youtube is your best friend). while the TL performs admirably as a FWD car (the FWD version), it's still a FWD car, and it'll be prone to the same torque steer issues that plague high-power FWD cars. even the S-AWD version of the TL lacks the same precision of the its FWD brethren.

in regards to my "upping the ante" remark, i meant that infiniti a whole model year after the release of the first-gen is to look at the segment and figure out how to put the rest of the class on notice. it did that by making it the most powerful car in its class when released. on the other hand, my guess is that lexus felt that the first-gen IS was still plenty capable in its class, and thus needed no revision until the next generation. btw, you didn't think infiniti arbitrarily set the power output of the second gen g35 at 306, did they?

(obviously the g37 has more horsepower - but it wouldn't have made sense to have one engine for the sedan and another for the coupe.)

obviously based on pricing the g37 will earn its merits (so will the TL), but what about in other subjective areas that aren't so discernable or obvious? that's what i mean by subjectively evaluating what else each car brings to the table; you can't just judge a car simply by its numbers.

 

lol....

A manual transmission offers more control over the vehicle. You feel more connected with the car you're driving instead of just constantly pressing down on the gas. Also you can do a lot of fun stuff like Toe-Heel downshifts.

 

to quote the lexus.com website, regarding the IS-F's eight-speed slushbox:

aside from professional race-car drivers, how many people do YOU know that can do that?

btw, i never knew drivers "heel-toe" for "fun".

 

dropping 300-400 wouldn't hurt in my opinion.

actually, let me just put it out there; it would be great if the car was 3000lbs.

 

Yes, the mere fact of the inclusion of providing the example of the AMG was my thought had the Japanese brand wording not been included. I will leave that out of the discussion as the main focus is the 3 automobiles mentioned (ISx50, G37 and the TL). The badge of the higher trimmed performance vehicles could be though as of a purpose-built street car but utilizing a few suspension pieces, a bigger engine while built around the same chassis doesn't really justify its race credentials. Feel free to disagree but a Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini would be more suited in the race credential category. But I have an idea on what you mean.

Improvement do existed over previous generations, very rarely do cars head in a different direction. Earlier generation of the G were plastic and full of rattles, Infiniti addressed the fit and finish interior issues and I would say its pretty well done. Is it perfect? Nope no car is. Similar characteristics as in the TL being more towards technology and a car with not a lot of soul and the G being more sports then what about the IS?

The adaptation/replication of the idrive system is fairly new tech to them. Similar to BMW, give them some time and it shouldn't take the manufacturers long before it becomes more user friendly. Take for example Lexus LS' self parking system. Its new to Lexus (although they weren't the first to come up with the system), still has flaws. Then again everyone's expectations operate on a different level.

With the help of my best friend I was able to find 2 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjecgpkl0is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_WJM1qv0vg
"The most powerful TL Acura have ever built"
Maybe you've misinterpreted their marketing strategy with Audis as Acura's commercial have not name dropped nor attacked its competition. Acura/Honda's philosophy have been about the better value and the most efficient, have been and probably will continue to be. Torque steer can not be eliminated but can be reduced via driveshaft components (cf) as well as electronics. Engineers of Acura/Nissan have a good idea of the power figure limits before torque steer becomes a real issue, ~300hp area

Compare the sales figure of the IS300 to the G35 given the same year and that should be an indication of which was a better seller. Better seller = more sales = more buys = more customer's choice. If Nissan/Infiniti received more customers due to their power numbers I say its fair play. Lexus had a chance, they just didn't do anything about it. If you think they are capable who am I to tell you not. 1st gen G35 had the VQ35DE (single intake) while the 2nd gen received the VQ35HR (dual intake), an engine improvement. There were quite a few updates throughout the model years for the G35. They listen to the customer with the changes.

Same engine, but different components and tune can vary the power figures. Just like G35 vs 350z, engine core is the same. G35 coupes are heavier than the sedan counterparts btw.

My point I was trying to make, first hand experience is important. Magazine numbers can only say so much, thats not to say it isn't something to consider. But if pricing is not of importance, the bracket of competitions widen. And I'm sure most would say why not buy the 335i and be done with it. We're talking about 30k-50k cars, I'm sure a majority have a budget in mind when buying the entry level cars. Not exactly millionaires that can disregard 10-20k easily.

 

Nitrous worked for me.... I wanted more power I got it whenever I want

 

anything other than the simple 7 lines used to represent the numbers that reminds me of the early 90s corolla and camry we used to have..

 

To be honest, rev-matching isn't that difficult, though like most driving techniques, it will require practice: developing this type of skill becomes part of the allure. Its certainly nice that they can mimic the technique in the IS-F (and other vehicles), but you don't need to be a professional race-car driver to utilize it effectively (though its better served on a track).

The other benefit mentioned was shift-speed, which isn't always a worthy tradeoff for driver involvement, when piloting a vehicle. When directly compared to other automatic trannies, this could appeal...but it says little to a person who is interested in shifting their own gears, especially on a primarily street driven vehicle.

I can appreciate the argument for both, but the appeal for a manual tranny has its merits...I love my auto IS (and even if it came in manual, I'd purchase auto), but I'd never consider a more dedicated sports car in anything but manual; it can shift faster than light, and I'd still prefer to select my own gears, because its fun...and fun doesn't always need practical justification.

For some, the thrill comes from the skill development.

 

But the IS-F in manual mode shifts MUCH faster than a human can with a clutch pedal in the way, and you can select, and hold, any gear you want... plus if you're stuck in traffic you have the option of leaving it in D and not wearing out your left leg.

Doing more work for inferior effect doesn't seem 'fun' to me.

I mean, I'm sure there were "enthusiasts" who were upset when cars stopped offering hand-cranks to start the engine too, but the electric starter caught on nonetheless as a better option

 

1. Control

2. Significantly less driveline hp loss

 

I understand the case involving the limitations of a third pedal and shifter, but its a highly subjective debate when you get into the qualities of driving for 'fun' vs driving for 'speed'. I'd 100% agree with you, if we were solely debating the latter (we KNOW there are a lot of misconceptions regarding what autos were, what they have become, and where they will continue to advance).

In the case of the former, though, its largely attributed to feel, and thus, you're going to have a hard time trying to divorce certain people from that idea, with the notion that they'd have to be removed from certain aspects of the experience to justify the added performance.

Now I, at least, wouldn't argue shift speeds and efficiency, given the advancements on the automatic front. The direction the industry is moving is obvious, and all for good reason...however, thats a more objective debate that misses the point of why I can also appreciate my other car.

 

Which is inferior in a 3rd pedal manual- since you take longer to change gears compared to, say, the IS-Fs "manual" mode that gives you the same amount of control but much quicker.

Which is nearly non-existent on a good modern auto thanks to the lock-up converter or dual-clutch autos... in fact many cars get better mileage with autos than manuals now... and if you're caring about "performance" you'll get to the end of the race quicker in the auto since you can't shift your clutch as fast as the computer can.




Now, I can't really argue with Shinobi-Xs point that if some people find extra work for lesser results "fun" then no amount of objective measurement will change their mind... some folks get some kinda enjoyment out of the "old fashioned way" even if a better one is available... certainly in THAT sense you can call such people manual-transmission enthusiasts... but I wouldn't call them _performance_ enthusiasts because what they're enthused about is something with measurably inferior performance.

 

There is less driveline loss (and more power to the wheels) in a manual transmission than in an automatic transmission, which = PERFORMANCE. More horsepower to the pavement is not "old fashioned" however you want to spin it. This would have been particularly helpful in an IS350, which doesn't have the same power to weight ratio as, say, an IS-F.

There's nothing inferior about rowing your own gears, regardless of your personal feelings on the issue.

 

in my opinion, i think having an automatic is so much better. and if you want MORE power than the IS 350, you should go look in a different class.