Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
05-24-07, 08:27 PM
#196
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The standard is better for all music except classical, in which case ML is recommended. Just what I picked up somewhere.
Last edited by Jeff777; 05-24-07 at 08:27 PM. Reason: terrible spelling slightly due to being buzzed on beer
05-25-07, 11:27 AM
#198
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Yeah - what's the point anyway. ML is not available on the east coast unless you special order it. I think Lexus could make more money on this car because it seems they skimped on making certain packages/options available when people are ready to plunk down the cash if the car they wanted was available. I wanted ML and dynamic cruise but was told I couldn't have them unless I special ordered.
05-25-07, 11:37 AM
#199
Lexus Fanatic
wtf... someone dug a 05 post, yet the thing is, i only read the first page, there is no explanation as to WHY its better... is it the spkr quality or some sort of DSP in the head unit or the quality of the amps cuz those are the 3 primary reasons why one radio is better in the same mdl car.
*yea its a forum noob, that figures*
*yea its a forum noob, that figures*
05-25-07, 12:18 PM
#200
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At this price level the DSPs are all about the same quality anyway considering the ML option is $750. How many quality audio systems are that cheap? My guess is the difference is the addition of a center channel speaker in the front (that accounts for the 14 vs. 13 speaker difference) and total power output difference of around 100W which is partially accounted for by the extra speaker. The rest of that difference sounds like the differences in the amps and not so much the speakers. I would suspect that the speakers are the same or very close in quality due to the low cost of the whole system, but you never know. I think the amp is located in the trunk or back of the car somewhere, and I'm sure the same wiring is used in an ML and non-ML car, so maybe one could just swap amplifiers?
I do think people are making a big deal about the ML package for nothing. If you spend $750 on car audio and think you're getting some top of the line great system you're crazy. Good DVD systems aren't that cheap, let alone one with a changer, a "better" amp, and "better" speakers. The only real advantage of ML is being able to watch DVDs which you can't do while driving anyway, so it's a wash.
Think about it this way: at $750 for an upgrade of all 14 speakers, amp, and head unit how good do you think it's going to be? Assume that half the cost goes toward the profit, amp, and head unit (DVD changer). That means each speaker is about a $26 upgrade over the Lexus premium audio package and that's being conservative, it may be even less than that.
I do think people are making a big deal about the ML package for nothing. If you spend $750 on car audio and think you're getting some top of the line great system you're crazy. Good DVD systems aren't that cheap, let alone one with a changer, a "better" amp, and "better" speakers. The only real advantage of ML is being able to watch DVDs which you can't do while driving anyway, so it's a wash.
Think about it this way: at $750 for an upgrade of all 14 speakers, amp, and head unit how good do you think it's going to be? Assume that half the cost goes toward the profit, amp, and head unit (DVD changer). That means each speaker is about a $26 upgrade over the Lexus premium audio package and that's being conservative, it may be even less than that.
05-25-07, 12:43 PM
#201
Lexus Fanatic
yea jdanon made a very good point, real quality audio equipment doesnt come cheep... then again im azn so i wasnt gonna spend 750 for some 100w upgrade and will just have to replace the spkrs in 3months time with some REAL gear newayz... thats some selling gimick for the old laides/old men who buy ES/RX. 'it even came with a mark levison sound system' 'ohh ahhh'...
yet for 750 over stock, it better damm well sound better than stock too... i really dont understand this thread... course its better, its a mark levison "oohh ahhh*
05-25-07, 01:24 PM
#202
At this price level the DSPs are all about the same quality anyway considering the ML option is $750. How many quality audio systems are that cheap? My guess is the difference is the addition of a center channel speaker in the front (that accounts for the 14 vs. 13 speaker difference) and total power output difference of around 100W which is partially accounted for by the extra speaker. The rest of that difference sounds like the differences in the amps and not so much the speakers. I would suspect that the speakers are the same or very close in quality due to the low cost of the whole system, but you never know. I think the amp is located in the trunk or back of the car somewhere, and I'm sure the same wiring is used in an ML and non-ML car, so maybe one could just swap amplifiers?
I do think people are making a big deal about the ML package for nothing. If you spend $750 on car audio and think you're getting some top of the line great system you're crazy. Good DVD systems aren't that cheap, let alone one with a changer, a "better" amp, and "better" speakers. The only real advantage of ML is being able to watch DVDs which you can't do while driving anyway, so it's a wash.
Think about it this way: at $750 for an upgrade of all 14 speakers, amp, and head unit how good do you think it's going to be? Assume that half the cost goes toward the profit, amp, and head unit (DVD changer). That means each speaker is about a $26 upgrade over the Lexus premium audio package and that's being conservative, it may be even less than that.
I do think people are making a big deal about the ML package for nothing. If you spend $750 on car audio and think you're getting some top of the line great system you're crazy. Good DVD systems aren't that cheap, let alone one with a changer, a "better" amp, and "better" speakers. The only real advantage of ML is being able to watch DVDs which you can't do while driving anyway, so it's a wash.
Think about it this way: at $750 for an upgrade of all 14 speakers, amp, and head unit how good do you think it's going to be? Assume that half the cost goes toward the profit, amp, and head unit (DVD changer). That means each speaker is about a $26 upgrade over the Lexus premium audio package and that's being conservative, it may be even less than that.
The ML system is a $940 upgrade with CD Changer
THe ML system with DVD Changer is $1440.
Key differences
1) 13 upgraded Speakers(Yes, they are different)
2) 1 Upgraded 300w amplifier with Digital input
3) Obviously a 6 disc DVD Changer
4) 1 Center channel
5) DSPs are different, as the ML produces 5.1 surround
So, the Speaker upgrades + the Amp = $940 upgrade
DVD Changer = $500 upgrade
The fact that they are upgrades is a key distinction. IE the 14 ML Speakers+Amp = $940 + The cost of the OEM Pioneer system.
So if you say the Pioneer system is worth $1060, then the ML CD Based system = $2000. Which is a pretty signifigant difference in price.
05-25-07, 01:52 PM
#203
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Yeah you're right the ML system is $940. But it's $940 over the OEM system, there's no point in considering what the total value of it is since it's all relative. We know what the OEM sounds like...does an extra grand really make that much of a difference when we're talking about that $940 spread across all 14 speakers, an amp, a DVD changer, plus profit for Lexus? 5.1 surround sound is pretty useless unless you're watching a movie, which again can you even do that while the car is in motion? I thought that was not possible, so are you merely paying for a louder system? I've had my Lexus OEM system up pretty loud, but not the max, and I can't really imagine me wanting it any louder than it already is. What is it that I am missing by not having the ML audio?
05-25-07, 02:36 PM
#204
Lexus Champion
Yeah you're right the ML system is $940. But it's $940 over the OEM system, there's no point in considering what the total value of it is since it's all relative. We know what the OEM sounds like...does an extra grand really make that much of a difference when we're talking about that $940 spread across all 14 speakers, an amp, a DVD changer, plus profit for Lexus? 5.1 surround sound is pretty useless unless you're watching a movie, which again can you even do that while the car is in motion? I thought that was not possible, so are you merely paying for a louder system? I've had my Lexus OEM system up pretty loud, but not the max, and I can't really imagine me wanting it any louder than it already is. What is it that I am missing by not having the ML audio?
05-25-07, 03:06 PM
#206
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Yeah you're right the ML system is $940. But it's $940 over the OEM system, there's no point in considering what the total value of it is since it's all relative. We know what the OEM sounds like...does an extra grand really make that much of a difference when we're talking about that $940 spread across all 14 speakers, an amp, a DVD changer, plus profit for Lexus? 5.1 surround sound is pretty useless unless you're watching a movie, which again can you even do that while the car is in motion? I thought that was not possible, so are you merely paying for a louder system? I've had my Lexus OEM system up pretty loud, but not the max, and I can't really imagine me wanting it any louder than it already is. What is it that I am missing by not having the ML audio?
Cheers,
Old Oiler
05-25-07, 03:12 PM
#207
Ok, don't say I didn't tell you so. 
About ML. Miss out on it if you want. 
Not I. I wouldn't dream of purchasing this car without ML. No way is that sticker shock, a few extra $$$k. Perhaps a lot of people could care less about Mark Levinson, but who wouldn't want the extra features that it offers and the better sound quality if they really knew about it?
Ok, I get it now. Lexus did their research and all the smart people from New York to LA, on the east coast and the west coast, Miami to Seattle, ML is just too expensive for you, no way would you want this crap. But we gotta build a few ML cars, so why not just send them to the midwest, like to Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, and maybe even Chicago. They'll buy them there, the dealerships are so few and far between, they'll never know how much cash they'll save if they had the option to purchase sans ML. Well, I'll take it!
Hehe, I believe you but I'm new to this whole Lexus thing and it just seems strange to me. It's like Acura saying Navigation is new and so few people would care about having Navigation in their car, let's just a bunch of cars for $2k less.....well, something like that.
Anyway, my guess is Lexus screwed up somehow and didn't whatever they had to do but that's ok on the first few allocations, there's time to get it right. I agree a few folks on the Internet don't make it so, but I got to believe, luxury is luxury and this isn't your IS300. I got a few people on my side: for as much as I'm going to pay for this car and for as long as I plan to keep it, me personally, I would silly to call myself buying a fully-loaded luxury vehicle and it didn't include ML. But that's just me.
Sorry for being so long. But they are here in Missouri, come check it out for yourself. I've seen 3 different ones for sale with my own eyes in the past 7 days. Tomorrow I'm going to Louisville, KY and I'll check to see what they have there...LOL. That's not a lot in the big scheme of things but time will tell I suppose.
About ML. Miss out on it if you want. Not I. I wouldn't dream of purchasing this car without ML. No way is that sticker shock, a few extra $$$k. Perhaps a lot of people could care less about Mark Levinson, but who wouldn't want the extra features that it offers and the better sound quality if they really knew about it?
Ok, I get it now. Lexus did their research and all the smart people from New York to LA, on the east coast and the west coast, Miami to Seattle, ML is just too expensive for you, no way would you want this crap. But we gotta build a few ML cars, so why not just send them to the midwest, like to Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, and maybe even Chicago. They'll buy them there, the dealerships are so few and far between, they'll never know how much cash they'll save if they had the option to purchase sans ML. Well, I'll take it!
Hehe, I believe you but I'm new to this whole Lexus thing and it just seems strange to me. It's like Acura saying Navigation is new and so few people would care about having Navigation in their car, let's just a bunch of cars for $2k less.....well, something like that.
Anyway, my guess is Lexus screwed up somehow and didn't whatever they had to do but that's ok on the first few allocations, there's time to get it right. I agree a few folks on the Internet don't make it so, but I got to believe, luxury is luxury and this isn't your IS300. I got a few people on my side: for as much as I'm going to pay for this car and for as long as I plan to keep it, me personally, I would silly to call myself buying a fully-loaded luxury vehicle and it didn't include ML. But that's just me.
Sorry for being so long. But they are here in Missouri, come check it out for yourself. I've seen 3 different ones for sale with my own eyes in the past 7 days. Tomorrow I'm going to Louisville, KY and I'll check to see what they have there...LOL. That's not a lot in the big scheme of things but time will tell I suppose.
but i am happy with my decision and will hold if for a few years yet. sounds like our car is more like a BMW when it comes to options...i must say i like Acura's approach to this. you get it all! keep cost down and if someone doesnt like or need to use it they dont have to.
05-26-07, 11:52 AM
#208
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anyone can get a levinson system just special order like i did, well worth the wait, awesome sound.
05-26-07, 12:30 PM
#209
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For myself im glad i got the ML for my car. I remember when i was negotiating at the dealership they did not have any Is350 with the ML system and since they only care about selling a car they were trying to persuade me to purchase a car that was on the lot without the ML. I said no and that i would like a Is350 with a ML in it. So i put a down and waited. BTW they do not offer Nav in Hawaii. 
During that same week my sister took in her RX for a check-up and she got a IS250 as a loaner. The loaner did not have a ML system but i quickly jumped in and test the set-up with some of my fav cd's. ie: madonna immaculate collection. I remember i asked my gf to listen to the sounds with me.
Well the day finally came and i got my Is350 with the ML system. Pop in my cd's and let me tell you there is a huge difference. The sounds sound much more live and surround. Plus my gf being not much of a sound person could also tell the difference between the non-ML and the ML system. The ML is loud but its not stupid loud where the bass is enough to shake your car.
The way i see it, from my last car where i spent god know how much $$$$ and time installing it myself. Changing the speakers, changing the wires, making flush mounted sub-box, amp rack, etc... I was really happy to pay the extra $940 and not do that myself and still getting much more live sound that my previous car.
I guess if your not into "live sounding" music and want pure bAsS
then the ML is not for you.
During that same week my sister took in her RX for a check-up and she got a IS250 as a loaner. The loaner did not have a ML system but i quickly jumped in and test the set-up with some of my fav cd's. ie: madonna immaculate collection. I remember i asked my gf to listen to the sounds with me.
Well the day finally came and i got my Is350 with the ML system. Pop in my cd's and let me tell you there is a huge difference. The sounds sound much more live and surround. Plus my gf being not much of a sound person could also tell the difference between the non-ML and the ML system. The ML is loud but its not stupid loud where the bass is enough to shake your car.
The way i see it, from my last car where i spent god know how much $$$$ and time installing it myself. Changing the speakers, changing the wires, making flush mounted sub-box, amp rack, etc... I was really happy to pay the extra $940 and not do that myself and still getting much more live sound that my previous car.
I guess if your not into "live sounding" music and want pure bAsS
then the ML is not for you.
05-26-07, 12:47 PM
#210
Lexus Test Driver
I special ordered to get the ML audio, and it was well worth the wait. Pop a DVD audio disk in there and you'll notice the difference...the sound quality is amazing for a stock system.
I don't understand some of the animosity towards the ML system. It's a fantastic upgrade.
I don't understand some of the animosity towards the ML system. It's a fantastic upgrade.