Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
10-18-05, 05:33 PM
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Mark Levinson -vs- Pioneer - The Showdown
Since it was announced that Mark Levinson would be scarce at best, I have spent a lot of time researching, listening and talking to people about the merits of the upgraded system when compared to "standard" audio. I started this adventure on the GS and moved to the IS when it shipped.
I'd like to share my findings with you all to help clear up a lot of misconception out whether or not Mark Levinson is worth it. If you are short on time, I'll tell you know, Mark Levinson is, without question, a worthy upgrade.
Why? Read on.
You'll find an endless line of dealers who will tell you that the Pioneer system in the IS is phonomenol, and that there is little need for ML. They will tell you that you can't hear the difference and that it's really not worth the extra expense. That is all a very easy thing to say when there isnt a Mark Levinson equipped vehicle on the lot. I wonder what they would say if they had nothing but ML on the lot...
The truth is, that when compared side by side, the difference is astounding!
I spent a lot of time in both systems using a CD I burned specifically for that purpose. All of the songs were selected to test the full range of both systems. One big mistake customers and dealers make is using random songs on the radio to test these systems. If you do that, you will not be able to detect a discernable difference.
What I found is, that in every way, Mark Levinson is far superior to both the GS and IS "standard" systems. I do need to point out that the "standard" systems are exceptional, especially on the IS. If you have not had the opportunity to compare the two, you will be easily impressed by the "standard" audio. The problem occurs when you then listen to a Mark Levinson equipped vehicle.
Why upgrade if "standard" is "exceptional"? The audio in these vehicles is so tied into so many other systems that an after-market upgrade is nearly impossible. If I am going to be stuck with a stock stereo, it had better sound real good. Mark Levinson sounds real good.
As for how to get Mark Levinson, you'll probably have to special order. If you are fortunate enough to live in a region with Mark Levinson in its allocation, you're very lucky.
It is my guess/opinion that Lexus will include Mark Levinson equipped vehicles in future allocations; probably in the next 2 months. If you call any dealer, the one consistency you will find is that they are ALL painfully aware that Mark Levinson is not available. This can only be due to an onslaught of customer questions. I have no doubt that Lexus is listening and will eventually deliver.
I'd like to share my findings with you all to help clear up a lot of misconception out whether or not Mark Levinson is worth it. If you are short on time, I'll tell you know, Mark Levinson is, without question, a worthy upgrade.
Why? Read on.
You'll find an endless line of dealers who will tell you that the Pioneer system in the IS is phonomenol, and that there is little need for ML. They will tell you that you can't hear the difference and that it's really not worth the extra expense. That is all a very easy thing to say when there isnt a Mark Levinson equipped vehicle on the lot. I wonder what they would say if they had nothing but ML on the lot...
The truth is, that when compared side by side, the difference is astounding!
I spent a lot of time in both systems using a CD I burned specifically for that purpose. All of the songs were selected to test the full range of both systems. One big mistake customers and dealers make is using random songs on the radio to test these systems. If you do that, you will not be able to detect a discernable difference.
What I found is, that in every way, Mark Levinson is far superior to both the GS and IS "standard" systems. I do need to point out that the "standard" systems are exceptional, especially on the IS. If you have not had the opportunity to compare the two, you will be easily impressed by the "standard" audio. The problem occurs when you then listen to a Mark Levinson equipped vehicle.
Why upgrade if "standard" is "exceptional"? The audio in these vehicles is so tied into so many other systems that an after-market upgrade is nearly impossible. If I am going to be stuck with a stock stereo, it had better sound real good. Mark Levinson sounds real good.
As for how to get Mark Levinson, you'll probably have to special order. If you are fortunate enough to live in a region with Mark Levinson in its allocation, you're very lucky.
It is my guess/opinion that Lexus will include Mark Levinson equipped vehicles in future allocations; probably in the next 2 months. If you call any dealer, the one consistency you will find is that they are ALL painfully aware that Mark Levinson is not available. This can only be due to an onslaught of customer questions. I have no doubt that Lexus is listening and will eventually deliver.
10-18-05, 05:48 PM
#2
Arggh! Why couldn't the Levinson be inferior! 
My car is coming this week and there is no Levinson. I have struggled with the decision to buy the car with nav but no Levinson because I hate to wait. Now, I am second guessing myself again. Damn Lexus!
My car is coming this week and there is no Levinson. I have struggled with the decision to buy the car with nav but no Levinson because I hate to wait. Now, I am second guessing myself again. Damn Lexus!
10-18-05, 06:21 PM
#5
I have heard this from numerous sources and dealers that the reason why Levinson wasn't on the IS350 was due to sticker shock. In other words, Lexus didn't want the public to feel that the IS was too expensive at launch and decided against putting Levinson to hold down the costs. What a crock of ****!
10-18-05, 06:24 PM
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I think it is REALLY important for you to understand that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with "standard" audio. What I am saying here is that I believe the upgrade is worth the money.
If you can't get Levinson, or don't want to wait, Percy has posted several times about upgrading your speakers to DynAudio to get ~ 90% Levinson. This might be a really good option.
Search for "Percy DynAudio" and you'll see a lot of threads. You can also post on Percy's forum "Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics" forum.
The LAST thing you want to be is disappointed in the car you already have or are about to get.
Levinson does not come with Nav. It is an upgrade, and can come with or without Nav.
I had the opportunity to speak with someone at the top of the management chain at Lexus about this and was told that they based their allocation on focus groups and "Taste of Lexus" event feedback. The vast majority of people will not want Levinson. For those of us who do, Lexus is left guessing about what options and color combos we want. If they are wrong, they eat some vehicles, or build excess inventory. I think they figure that enthusiasts will be happy to wait for the car they want, and do make all options available via special order.
Please do not feel bad about having a "standard" system. I believe that the IS "standard" audio is among the best, if not the best, audio on any car in this class.
If you can't get Levinson, or don't want to wait, Percy has posted several times about upgrading your speakers to DynAudio to get ~ 90% Levinson. This might be a really good option.
Search for "Percy DynAudio" and you'll see a lot of threads. You can also post on Percy's forum "Lexus Audio, Video, Security & Electronics" forum.
The LAST thing you want to be is disappointed in the car you already have or are about to get.
Levinson does not come with Nav. It is an upgrade, and can come with or without Nav.
I had the opportunity to speak with someone at the top of the management chain at Lexus about this and was told that they based their allocation on focus groups and "Taste of Lexus" event feedback. The vast majority of people will not want Levinson. For those of us who do, Lexus is left guessing about what options and color combos we want. If they are wrong, they eat some vehicles, or build excess inventory. I think they figure that enthusiasts will be happy to wait for the car they want, and do make all options available via special order.
Please do not feel bad about having a "standard" system. I believe that the IS "standard" audio is among the best, if not the best, audio on any car in this class.
10-18-05, 06:46 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Erick G
What is Lexus's excuse for NOT having ML ready at launch?
Do they plan on fixing this problem anytime soon?
Do they plan on fixing this problem anytime soon?
you must be asking the question "why isn't ml available in your part of the country?" my only answer would be "not now, but one day soon."
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10-18-05, 06:50 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by Maximus330
I have heard this from numerous sources and dealers that the reason why Levinson wasn't on the IS350 was due to sticker shock. In other words, Lexus didn't want the public to feel that the IS was too expensive at launch and decided against putting Levinson to hold down the costs. What a crock of ****!
obviously your sources lied to you as you stated. that's not a mistake or a rumor; that's a lie. and you should tell them that when you get a chance. this car is not ferrari or a lambo and it's only an audio system. there's no such thing as sticker shock at these price points. $2,000 gold rims each, 4 on a car, standard, that would be sticker shock.
10-18-05, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kensteele
the problem is already fixed. ml is now ready. buyers all over most of the eastern half and central parts of the us are purchasing ml ready vehicles...right now.
you must be asking the question "why isn't ml available in your part of the country?" my only answer would be "not now, but one day soon."
you must be asking the question "why isn't ml available in your part of the country?" my only answer would be "not now, but one day soon."
I wouldnt be completely sure about that, though I can't discount it. Before I ordered, I called all but the midwest region. None had ML, although there were sporadic reports of a few ML vehicles being sold in those regions, even a couple in California from what I was just told today. I find this very odd since California had 0 ML vehicles in its allocation. Where did these come from?
I do not believe the second allocation has dropped. I don't think that will happen until November. I don't think it can be disputed that some dealerships in the country do have ML, but the majority don't seem to.
I completely agree that ML will arrive soon, but I don't think that can happen until early December. That is all, conjecture, of course, since none of us heard this from Lexus. Oh, and dealers NEVER count as Lexus. They count as people who have answers as different as the number of dealers you can call on the phone.
10-18-05, 06:55 PM
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folks. if you want mark levinson, get on an airplane and come out this way and buy your car with mark levinson. there's no way in hell i would settle for a local car without ml if i really really wanted ml. at these prices and the time i intend to keep this car, i would do whatever i could to get one if i couldn't wait. ml vehicles are closer to you than you think. the only issue i can think of is the strange calif laws on buying vehicles out of state. otherwise....
we can never be sure why lexus allocated this way but i can guarantee you this. they didn't intend to deprive the west coast of ml cars. if you think there will be no ml cars driving around the west coast this year. i've never even heard the difference...but i know i want it.
we can never be sure why lexus allocated this way but i can guarantee you this. they didn't intend to deprive the west coast of ml cars. if you think there will be no ml cars driving around the west coast this year. i've never even heard the difference...but i know i want it.
10-18-05, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kensteele
obviously your sources lied to you as you stated. that's not a mistake or a rumor; that's a lie. and you should tell them that when you get a chance. this car is not ferrari or a lambo and it's only an audio system. there's no such thing as sticker shock at these price points. $2,000 gold rims each, 4 on a car, standard, that would be sticker shock.
What I said in my 2nd post above is from the horse's mouth. Lexus did their research and determined that there would not be demand for Mark Levinson. You can't fault them for being wrong - IF they are wrong.
Remember, a few people in an enthusiast community complaining about no ML does not mean swarms of people are chomping at the bit for ML.
10-18-05, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kensteele
folks. if you want mark levinson, get on an airplane and come out this way and buy your car with mark levinson. there's no way in hell i would settle for a local car without ml if i really really wanted ml. at these prices and the time i intend to keep this car, i would do whatever i could to get one if i couldn't wait. ml vehicles are closer to you than you think. the only issue i can think of is the strange calif laws on buying vehicles out of state. otherwise....
we can never be sure why lexus allocated this way but i can guarantee you this. they didn't intend to deprive the west coast of ml cars. if you think there will be no ml cars driving around the west coast this year. i've never even heard the difference...but i know i want it.
we can never be sure why lexus allocated this way but i can guarantee you this. they didn't intend to deprive the west coast of ml cars. if you think there will be no ml cars driving around the west coast this year. i've never even heard the difference...but i know i want it.
Most people will think the cost of that is silly but, to me, it beats a 4 month wait!
10-18-05, 07:37 PM
#13
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What Gonzo heard is correct...
Lexus does a lot of market research. The Mark Levinson brand is still relatively unknown. In fact the person himself no longer works or is associated with the brand that carries his name. Madrigal Labs is another exotic brand which is owned by Harmon International. I think more people would recognize the name Harmon Kardon as a premium brand of audio equipment. When Lexus dropped Nakamichi as their audio upgrade it was due to a lack of integrating the system with the Denso Navigation system. Mark Levinson came along and said he would design a killer system for the acoustic sound chamber that is Lexus. Why is the ML so much better? It is more powerful, uses more exotic materials like titanium tweeters and Neodium magnets for its speakers. It uses Digital Sound Processing which reduces signal and harmonic distortion. It usually has an extra center channel speaker and now comes with 5.1 Dolby surround sound. Is it worth it? You bet it is. ( provided you are an avid audiophile) Is it available right away? Not here in the East. My feeling is that the IS350 has so many attractive features that Mark Levinson might be the icing on the cake and if someone is willing to spend $43 K to get what they want then they will probably bump themselves to $45k for the ultimate Lexus ML system and play DVD's if they want on their new VGA monitor! ( I love that feature) Lexus has decided to take away ML from the ES330's equipped with nav to rein in the price creep from topping 40K. There is not the same jump in audio specs on the ES330 ML system like there is in the GS300/430 and the IS350/250. The ML power amps in the ES are 100 Watts less. There may be a shortage of ML units this early into production but very few of my customers care about this issue they just want to drive the thing and get the color and package they desire and right now too. I keep forgetting to bring my IPOD shuffle to work to try out the new port but I have to get a mini to mini cable inorder to plug it in. Keep asking your dealer for ML and keep posting your preferences or just special order it and sweat the time.....I am also a little skeptical that there are that many in Kansas either, Dorothy.....There's no place like home, there's no place like home.....
10-18-05, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoBuggs
I spent a lot of time in both systems using a CD I burned specifically for that purpose. All of the songs were selected to test the full range of both systems.
10-18-05, 08:51 PM
#15
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Ok, don't say I didn't tell you so. 
About ML. Miss out on it if you want.
Not I. I wouldn't dream of purchasing this car without ML. No way is that sticker shock, a few extra $$$k. Perhaps a lot of people could care less about Mark Levinson, but who wouldn't want the extra features that it offers and the better sound quality if they really knew about it?
Ok, I get it now. Lexus did their research and all the smart people from New York to LA, on the east coast and the west coast, Miami to Seattle, ML is just too expensive for you, no way would you want this crap. But we gotta build a few ML cars, so why not just send them to the midwest, like to Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, and maybe even Chicago. They'll buy them there, the dealerships are so few and far between, they'll never know how much cash they'll save if they had the option to purchase sans ML. Well, I'll take it!
Hehe, I believe you but I'm new to this whole Lexus thing and it just seems strange to me. It's like Acura saying Navigation is new and so few people would care about having Navigation in their car, let's just a bunch of cars for $2k less.....well, something like that.
Anyway, my guess is Lexus screwed up somehow and didn't whatever they had to do but that's ok on the first few allocations, there's time to get it right. I agree a few folks on the Internet don't make it so, but I got to believe, luxury is luxury and this isn't your IS300. I got a few people on my side: for as much as I'm going to pay for this car and for as long as I plan to keep it, me personally, I would silly to call myself buying a fully-loaded luxury vehicle and it didn't include ML. But that's just me.
Sorry for being so long. But they are here in Missouri, come check it out for yourself. I've seen 3 different ones for sale with my own eyes in the past 7 days. Tomorrow I'm going to Louisville, KY and I'll check to see what they have there...LOL. That's not a lot in the big scheme of things but time will tell I suppose.
About ML. Miss out on it if you want. Not I. I wouldn't dream of purchasing this car without ML. No way is that sticker shock, a few extra $$$k. Perhaps a lot of people could care less about Mark Levinson, but who wouldn't want the extra features that it offers and the better sound quality if they really knew about it?
Ok, I get it now. Lexus did their research and all the smart people from New York to LA, on the east coast and the west coast, Miami to Seattle, ML is just too expensive for you, no way would you want this crap. But we gotta build a few ML cars, so why not just send them to the midwest, like to Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, and maybe even Chicago. They'll buy them there, the dealerships are so few and far between, they'll never know how much cash they'll save if they had the option to purchase sans ML. Well, I'll take it!
Hehe, I believe you but I'm new to this whole Lexus thing and it just seems strange to me. It's like Acura saying Navigation is new and so few people would care about having Navigation in their car, let's just a bunch of cars for $2k less.....well, something like that.
Anyway, my guess is Lexus screwed up somehow and didn't whatever they had to do but that's ok on the first few allocations, there's time to get it right. I agree a few folks on the Internet don't make it so, but I got to believe, luxury is luxury and this isn't your IS300. I got a few people on my side: for as much as I'm going to pay for this car and for as long as I plan to keep it, me personally, I would silly to call myself buying a fully-loaded luxury vehicle and it didn't include ML. But that's just me.
Sorry for being so long. But they are here in Missouri, come check it out for yourself. I've seen 3 different ones for sale with my own eyes in the past 7 days. Tomorrow I'm going to Louisville, KY and I'll check to see what they have there...LOL. That's not a lot in the big scheme of things but time will tell I suppose.