jderry

18-21? I do not claim to be an expert on Lexus vehicles nor do I claim to be an expert on BMW. However, I would never disrespect someone's opinion in that matter.

Let me provide proof since I know you are a thorough expert on M3's as I can tell.

http://www.rogueengineering.com/Merc...dyno_graph.gif

As you can see, the stock RWHP is definitely around 215 AT LEAST and with the exhaust approximately 227. So, that means stock RWHP was around 220 RWHP because we all know NO exhaust can give you more than 5-7 RWHP at the maximum.





This vehicle dynoed VERY well stock, I believe around 227...



I believe this is is a 4 DR M3 that put down these numbers

Stock M3's are dynoing at 218 to approximately 226.7. Why is that so hard to believe? I highly, highly doubt you have been there when an M3 has been on a dyno. Because even a 80K mile M3 was dynoing at 218 RWHP that did not have a tuneup.

So--- I know of course, all of the dynojets were off, these are BS numbers, etc...etc. Trust me, there are some OBD-I results that are DAMN impressive. The M3 puts down impressive numbers STOCK at the dyno. Just like you can take TWO IS300's and get TWO different DYNO graphs from them, 2 different HP numbers, 2 different Torque figures.

However, the M3 averages about 215-218 which is pretty damn impressive. My dyno run was done to give a baseline.

But then again, I guess ... this person is an expert and hates M3's, must have owned one and it was a piece of crap, so decided to buy an underpowered IS300 instead. No offense to IS300 owners; but, the vehicle is underpowered and DESERVES a little more juice.

Sentinel

DO I NEED TO POST PICTURES FROM THE DYNO DAY? HAHAH.
I dont buy your figures because ive watched m3s on a dyno.

dyno numbers on the web are rarely accurate and between u and the dyno day i was at I know what i believe.

the new m3 dyno'd at just over 300 whp
the gen 2 with exhaust chipped and i beleive an intake was 225. I WATCHED IT DYNO no here say, no i read a post... I stood beside it looked under the hood, watched the wheels spin.

my car dynoed at 195 hp 195 tq( I have a 5spd).

with all the 325s , 525s, and 318s y is a m3 owner calling the is300 under powered?

MAYBE ID give u 225 on race gas(if u said that I appolize) but other wise i call bs because I was watching them.

Dont get me wrong I love m3 there great cars. I hate seeing misinformation posted on forums.

there is no reason to compare a m3 to an is300 i dont know y people even bother. I can see the 330 maybe but not the m3.

jderry

this is a graph from a stock 1996 328. So, these numbers aren't impressive as a baseline either 181. something something for a STOCK 328 with no modifications?



A 4-Dr M3....makes you cry now....considering the stock numbers...

Stock: 215.5 rwhp/217.4 ft lbs
UDP + CAI: 232.4 rwhp/234.3 ft lbs
UDP + CAI + ASC-delete + fan-delete + AA exhaust: 234/232

some of the dyno's used were mustang dyno's, that's what the 4DR m3 was dynoed on, if a dynojet was used, I am POSITIVE the numbers would have been higher. Although some are switching to roller dyno's, or dynopaks as well - don't know about their accuracy.

So cry B.S. all you want, here's the proof. Most dyno runs give or take about plus or minus 4-5 HP.







These are corrected and uncorrected dyno's. There are M3's that will dyno also around 199 as well. I've seen them, but, there are far more dynoing around the 215 range and even up to 226 stock.

Don't ask me why, I don't know...but I wouldn't B.S. you either.

Sentinel

DUDE on page 2 use tossing around the figure of 225 on a m3 like its the rule. Ive seen them dyno never seen that high stock. Your post basically says 225 is an aburation so y bother posting it? from your post 215 seems MUCH more reasonable as a number to use indiscussion.

u ur self say that it is rare (I think so rare it doesnt exist unless its -50 outside).

Now stop comparing your 42k car to a 32k car to it make u feel more manely. a little lite in the crouch? haha there just cars

is300 is great for 32k
the m3 is nice for 42k, 10k nicer that is open to opinion.

as for ur dribble toyota has gotten well over 100 hp per liter for over ten years. If they wanted 300+ hp out of a 3 liter dont doubt for a second theyd do it. Its cheaper for them to use a 4.3 v8 from there parts bin or a turbo then to develope a high reving 3 liter inline 6.(not to mention more relaible).

jderry

it's true, but I can show you my DYNO run as well where the only modification if you call them that, was a +4 Pt plugs. Perhaps it was a great day, I don't remember the humidity nor the temperature. It was on a dynojet versus a mustang dyno, and I put down 225 at the rears.

I know that it can be faulty as well- but I surmise I am still putting down around 215 RWHP STOCK form.

My co-worker dynoed his new M3 and he received 302.1 RWHP which translates into about 369 HP at the FLY...

If you dynoed 195 RWHP that means you are right around 238 at the fly. But stock 328is's are dynoing around 175-180 which puts them around 214 at the fly to about 220. So....I am not sure where you are located and what your humidity temperatures are, whether the dyno run is done indoors, or air-conditioned, whether with open doors and fans, etc.

I mean, I personally think your numbers are low....especially on a dynojet. Considering the 5 HP....difference....on a dynojet...

I consider the IS300 underpowered because there is no variation of the IS300. Considering the IS300 and salesman at Lexus, this is what they told me when I walked in with the M3 "this IS300 will give your M3 a run for the money....and definitely handle like it...."

No offense, that's plain BS...I know, salesman talk; but, still, that's the crap their feeding the customers.

As an M3 owner, I don't think it is the greatest car in the world. I think there are many cars that will hand it it's ***. I know on a any given day, the acura can hand me my *** if I am not on top of things. People bash the integra as being crappy....that car, well-tuned, can handle with the best of them......I mean, look at how much you can tweak out of the 4-cylinder engine.......The VTEC really comes alive on the highway....

The S2000 is a great car...on any given day, it can beat an M3...I'm talking E36 model not E46. Most of the time it comes down to the DRIVER and their ability...

But, to me, the unfortunate thing is that the IS300 really doesn't stand a chance against the E36 M3, stock v. stock. It will not outhandle the M3 on curves,... and will definitely not outaccelerate it. I mean, your 60' trap time for a good M driver is around 2.0, if you can get below that, you're pretty damn good. The best I've seen on an IS is 2.2; but, perhaps there are people getting 2.1's stock or 2.0's....

I was really excited when the IS300 came out- I was like finally. Someone to knock the M3 off it's high horse, because most M3 owners are SOB's...they think their car can beat most anything on the road, which is TOTALLY false. They make excuses, oh, my hand slipped off the clutch, I didn't have a tune-up, my air filter is clogged, BS...or that person has NOS, turbo, S/C...B.S...you lose you lose...to me, many bimmer owners don't lose graciously...

I like the M3, because I think $ for $, you get a GREAT vehicle, especially an OBD-I...so easy to do modifications on...and relatively cheap power can be added. I cannot say the same for the IS300. I mean, the IS300 engine should at LEAST be putting down 260 at the fly. I mean, hell, Infiniti's G35 coupe is going to be around 270 BHP.

The forthcoming S4 2003, will be a biturbo V8 putting down 360 BHP. Chip that S4, and you are talking laying the smack down on an M5 now. I mean, to me, Lexus, if they need to make a serious sports car. The SC series, that's not a sports car, neither is the IS300....the IS300 is geared to college students or recent graduates. But, to the more older crowd, we are craving C5 power, SL55 power, etc.

300 HP at the fly is just not going to cut it anymore. I mean, my SC400 DRINKS gas....compared to the M3....I got SOLID (not great) but SOLID performance and good gas mileage. I can hang with most cars, even though my vehicle is a 1995. EVEN stock, I could still be a formidable threat. With a few modifications, my car turns into a very formidable opponent to most vehicles.

I mean SRT told me that although my SC has 250 HP, I might be putting down around 180 at the rears. I mean, that's around a correction factor of 1.4. I mean, I see IS300's kicking butt in the rally circuit - why can't they sell an IS300 with matching performance. Perhaps not M3 territory; but, a solid 6 cylinder with around 260-280 BHP...I mean, that 6 banger they are using has to be able to be tweaked....

Sentinel

on a track it all comes down to driver.
m3s are 45k if ull believe a 30k care can keep up then the dealer will rape u.

is300 is nice. is it an m3 no. after 15k in mods will it keep up with a m3? maybe ive never driven one.

but lexus doesnt have a high hp variant of the is300, im glad they made the car at all. 3 years ago if u wanted 5spd , rwd, decent handling car u didnt have many options now u do.

and be certain the is300 motivates the bmw to keep the 3 series in check. competition is good.

jderry

I am not trying to start a flame war, relax.

I am not talking about a 42K car vs. a 32K car. I am talking about the IS300 versus older model M3's. Particularly, a 1995 M3. I was seriously considering trading in the M3 to purchase the IS300 when it came out; but, I was very disappointed after driving it.

My argument is that the IS300 is a good car; but, at minimum, it should be able to keep up with the M3's. I mean, the M3 has been around for a while. It would not have taken Lexus that much to develop a car that would be comparable in handling, acceleration, etc, to the M3. That's all I am saying. Lexus was directing the IS300 right at 3-owners, why not also go after the m-owners as well??

The GS400 is a great car as well. But, it's not really a performance-minded vehicle. I thought that was the void the IS300 was going to take up. I mean, come on, you have to admit, the engine on the IS300 compared to other manufacturer's engines is slightly underpowered. I am referring to Infiniti's 6, Acura's 6, bimmer's 6, Nissan's 6, etc.

I mean dollar for dollar, I think the Acura 3.2 type S with six-spd and the forthcoming Infiniti G35 coupe are probably one of the BEST deals out there. You get performance, solid acceleration and handling, and good ride qualities. Both of them are comparable in price to the IS300, and as it sits, the IS300 is really no match for the 330 ci in my opinion. Not in its stock form at least.

I mean say what you will, I am not trying to bash Lexus at all. If that were the case, I would sell mine. I like Lexus vehicles and I am partial to them. But, performance wise, the edge definitely favors Bimmers IMO....

Also, in regards to the 225 being aberrant, perhaps I know many M3 owners with aberrant vehicles. In Mclean - many of my neighbors have cars that are dynoing in the 220+ range, perhaps ERT has a faulty dyno with inflated numbers - but that's what we're getting....and six of us went there on a weekend. Three of us received 220+, the two received around 210-212, the last received around 205. We ran three pulls each with a difference of around 2.1 HP for each pull.

I know Toyota can build a great engine, look at the bulletproof 2JZ like someone pointed out or the MKIII engine 7M-GTE engine (other than the deal with the BHG problems...-- YES, mine blew on me with 31K on it...). But, the 7m-GTE with a new HG, does great. I am not saying Toyota cannot do it - I am just saying I do not like V8's...if the V8 is going to be anything like the GS4 that I had or the SC4 that I have now, it drinks gas....it does. I would rather have a high-revving 6 cylinder as you put it. Although, I would disagree with you on the reliance issue.

A compression test was done and I was within 1.5% each cylinder within factory specs....not to shabby for an older car. So, I discount the reliance issue. Most of us anyways would not keep a car for more than 10 years, unless it had really low mileage. I would say 5 years maximum most of us have the same car.

I mean, I would never BS you, it's not going to get me anywhere. I 've already admitted any car can take me on any given day. I am not saying BMW is superior - nor do I think they have a claim to superiority. So, please don't think I mean it in that manner.

Toog4me

All the IS needs is the SRT Supercharger and a little bit of handling mods, and your on your way.

CarbonIS300

jderry

If you built up both these cars to there maximum the IS300 will dwarf the M3 E36 or E46, and if you don't believe that check out this time slip for a turbo IS300...

Yeah that’s right IS300T runs 11.6 @ 126mph. --oh did i mention no engine mod's just a bolt on kit and a copper head gasket...

Not to mention that the IS pulls a .91 g's on the skip pad stock with the Stock Dunlop SP9000 215X17 ZR's.

Sentinel

jderry? well hmm a 95 m3 cost of owner will be very high, i considered one.

EGainer

yes, the wheels are TTE, here is another pic from the set i posted in the other thread

Grimpy

I test drove a brand new 330 because my sister was either going to get that or the IS ... Handles great esp on turns and braking still amazes me, but the ride is ****ty... For a stock car, it's more bumpy than my sc400 which is lowered almost 2" with 40/35 series tires. Plus you can hear and feel everybump you go over.... I asked the saleperson wtf is wrong with the car and he said " BMW wants their drivers to be able to feel the road" We went to Longo Lexus the same day and she picked up a new 2002 IS instead.

IS200 3SGTE

In regards to the claim that the IS300 could not creat anywhere near the 429HP claimed by the bolt on turbo kit i have to disagree. We all know the awesome potential of the 2JZGTE, many supra owners with a simple boost controller, bigger fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator have reached HP of about 480HP with stock turbos. You can buy a cheap TT setup from a supra owner because most people upgrade to a big single turbo and just want to get rid of it and you can creat that kind of HP because the IS300 engines is the same as the supras just non turbo. And with a big single turbo upgrade and other mods you can make well over 700, infact at turboimports.com has a 850HP turbo upgrade for the 2JZ that comes with everything for $10,200, if you consider the massive HP increase that is not bad at all. and with the additional money it will bring you up to the same price as a M3 but with over double the HP. that is of course if you are only interested in HP and want to smoke anyone you see.

i know it is alot of money but for the performance you cant say it is not amazing.

Just a thought, just thinking out loud. never mind me.

CmputerWiz

The stock motor in the IS300 / SC300 / GS300 can get to 450hp with a stage 1 toyomoto kit. 600hp (albeit not totally safely) on the stage 1.5 kit.



SR

Turbo'd_Wxman

Let me just say that any 330 that wants to race me, just tell me where to go and make sure you bring your pink slip. I will massacre you every, EVERY day of the week.