i'm looking to buy a new car within the next year, and am interested in what I've been hearing about the upcoming 2013 GS 350, so I have a couple of general questions: 1) what has Lexus' track record been with 1st model year cars?...lots of problems or are they pretty solid from the very beginning? 2) i know this would be pretty much a wild guess, but assuming the 2013 comes out in early 2012, what's the earliest the 2014 would come out?

I'm also considering the new BMW 3 series or 5 series, but hearing about the fair amount of mechanical/engine problems BMW has been having in the past few years, especially with turbos, I am looking for alternatives

I drove an M3 for many years, and my brother currently drives an M3, and we never had any problems with our BMWs, but I'm still disconcerted with what I've read about the newer cars…so if I could get the quality/reliability that Lexus is known for + some decent sports sedan performance, i'd love to give Lexus a shot

 

Good questions. I think Lexus first year reliability is good except that a lot of folks seem to have complained about sqeaks and rattles the first couple of years of the current GS.

I read a lot about problems with BMW's as well. But I have several good friends who have owned quite a few BMW's and have had not problems with them either.

Between the cars my advice would be to buy the one that tugs at your emotions the most. There really aren't many bad cars these days from a quality standpoint. There is always the risk that you get the bad one, but they have long warranty's on these premium brands.

 

what concerns me a lot about BMWs recent reliabilty and quality problems is that they seem so slow to fix them….and you have the fanboys making statements like: "so what if your car has some problems, at least you're driving a BMW!"

I do like Lexus' longer Powertrain warranty…but obviously the best warranty is one that you never have to take advantage of

BMW's nickel & diming on options also bugs me, whereas Lexus seems to provide more standard features which seems to give more bang for your buck

anyway, I look forward to actual driving reviews of the new GS 350 (and the all-new 3), and that will have a lot of influence on which cars I seriously hone in on

 

Coming from having experience with Lexus and BMW, here are a couple of things to keep in mind.

BMW typically engineer their cars to handle better and sportier. They also market their brand as sporty cars and are successful in doing so. So much so, that many fanboys will ignore the fact that BMW are average in terms of reliability and defend their position by saying, at least I'm driving a BMW and you're driving a xxxxxxxxx. My rule of thumb is to not buy a BMW until the model year is in the later years of development. The unspoken rule is that BMW does some real beta testing on their vehicles, but the major testing is done when people buy their cars and they're used as the testers and then they try to fix all of the problems during the first couple of years.

If you go the BMW route, my experience has been that their quality/reliability of their cars are average. The service advisors are average to poor. I'll put up with it only because I do enjoy driving a BMW.

On the other hand, owning a Lexus is an easy experience. You're typically not going to have to fight with your service advisor because their quality/reliability is typically above average to excellent. Unforutnately, Lexus' image is not very sporty save for the LFA and IS-F. We'll have to see what Lexus does with the GS-F but many people will agree that Lexus and Toyota needs to put the sporty cars back in their line up.

Ultimately, it's going to be depend on what you're after that will guide you to which brand. Personally, I'd say that if you deciding over the GS vs a BMW, this puts you in a very good position because from first glance and priliminary specs, it looks like the new GS will offer BMW and Mercedes a good option. The interior looks very nice, not the bland styling that you'd typically see. For example, the pictures that they've shown of the interior is two-toned. Typically, if Lexus has a beige interior, it's not beige/black. It's typically beige/darker beige. The styling is also more agressive. Of course, the reliability will be there. Even if the first year of the new GS has some problems, it will not have nearly has many problems as a BMW.

From reading the OP original post, it seems like he's leaning towards the Lexus anyways as he's stating some things that bug him such as the options, etc.

Either way, good luck.

 

bam, I am the OP ….thanks for your comments, they sum up exactly the impressions I've gotten from reading the BMW and Lexus forums, including the BMW fanboy attitudes

it will be very interesting to hear what the pros say about real driving experience, of both the GS and the 3….if the reviews of the GS are positive, I look forward to bypassing BMW and seriously shopping for the new GS

 

i don't care if it's lexus or bmw or mb or whatever, i won't get first year car. first year lexus might be better than other brands, but looking back in lexus recent history, first year model seems to have higher chances of bugs here and there too

 

regarding first model year issues/bugs, my main concern is major mechanical/engine/drivetrain problems...specifically things that will actually shut the car down and/or cause the car to be undriveable, requiring immediate time in the shop...(ie. BMW HPFP, "Tip In", etc.)

although it would be annoying and disappointing, if little things like gadgets and other amenities had some initial bugs or if there were some squeaks/rattles, as long as these things could be easily fixed/replaced, i wouldn't be overly devastated

from what i understand, the drivetrain in the new GS isn't exactly "new"...which i would hope would mean less likelihood of serious mechanical issues?

 

Having a first and second year 3GS, I'd say wait for the second year model. I haven't had any serious issues but there is a difference.

 

so back to my question #2, assuming the 2013 GS comes out in Jan/Feb 2012, anyone care to guess when the 2014 may come out?...end of 2012, or well into 2013?

 

Keep in mind that BMW markets themselves as not only a sporty brand but also a tech driven brand. In completing that marketing plan, they of course have to deliver. With regards to the tech side of things, BMW does incorporate new tech into their cars. For example, on the 335i, the car has a dual exhaust but under normal conditions, there exists a flap in the exhaust on the left side pipe that remians closed. Under spirited driving where more exhaust is produced or less back pressure is wanted, the flap opens and only then do you truly have a dual exhaust. Of course, this is unseen tech to 90% of BMW owners but it's there and of course with tech, comes the potential for failure and unfortanately with BMW, it does actually occur.

On the other hand, Lexus isn't nessarily pushing the tech envelope with their cars. They typically evolve their tech so that's it's based off of tried and true designs and therefore work quite well with minimal problems. As far as squeaks and rattles, that's more of an assembly line issue which can be traced back to an engineering issue in terms of designing the assembly line to put the vehicle together better but that's not an engineering issue such as BMW has with the HPFP failures.

Quite honestly, the only real engineering failure that I can recall as of late was with the previous gen GX460 and the drive line thump/vibration and the recent thing with the valve springs.

Ultimately, it's what you value more. At least with the GS and prelim info, it seems that the sport factor is narrowing a little bit between the GS and 5 series and E class. We'll have to see what Lexus does with the next gen IS but if it's anything like the step that they took with the GS, I'm having high hopes for the next gen IS.

BMW will always advance the next 3 series in everyway possible except for the reliability area. If Lexus can advance the sportiness of the next IS and maintain the reliability, sign me up (but I'll wait until the mid-life refresh because I like mid-life refreshes because of all the cool goodies.) I actually don't even mind taking the last year of the car because that's typically when they bring out all of the good options. For example, for the last year of the IS-F, it seems that they're finally adding a red/black interior option. I haven't seen any pictures but I'm expecting this color combo to look awesome.

 

worry about the drivetrain is probably not the right way to look at it. that's usually not what bugs most.

3gs - a lot of rattling and squeaks
4ls - wind noise problem driving owners crazy
04 ls430 - tranny shifting problem requiring firmware updates
98 gs400 - rattling issues

while drive train is important, first year cars, a lot of times it's all those little problems here and that that bug most

 

did any of these actually get fixed in the 2nd year? :-).

 

Yeah wait for the 2nd-3rd year. Possibly its gonna be updated. Look at how the 01+ GS was updated, the 07+ GS was updated so now the they might do the same.

 

some, not all. but at least better. ls got laminated glass, ls430 got new tranny firmware, 99 gs less rattles. 3gs continued to fail. i never said 2nd yr is problem free, but at least that's time for them to fix some. for all i care, no cars ever becomes perfect before the end of their design cycle

 

Hell, you might just have to wait longer into the 2013MY. An example of this is a lot of people who got the 2010 RX (Canadian built) early and had issues with the front bumper not fitting properly. Lexus fixed that problem mid-cycle and we got one of the later ones. No problems to speak of. YMMV.