4GS mega thread (UPDATED; preview drives, specs, more interior pics)
The article says the hybrid will likely be based around the entry-level V6, so it'll probably be a GS350h or GS300h, with the GS450h getting scraped. Unsurprising, because the GS450h really isn't much faster than the GS350, at least on paper, so they might as well downsize the hybrid and focus on fuel economy.
if they really base the hybrid on the entry level engine, then i am totally lost. they are scraping the v8, and the hybrid is being "downgraded". so what are they going to put out to compete with the 550i and e550? i surely hope "gsf" is not the answer...
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: CA
if they really base the hybrid on the entry level engine, then i am totally lost. they are scraping the v8, and the hybrid is being "downgraded". so what are they going to put out to compete with the 550i and e550? i surely hope "gsf" is not the answer...
Last edited by Mister Two; Oct 5, 2010 at 12:02 PM.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,997
Likes: 248
From: California
A common trend is to bring out a smaller engine, keep the same higher sticker price as the original car, and make that the new base offering. In essence, people are getting "cheated" compared to the last generation's base output, but it allows companies to maintain the same/similar sticker price as the old model. This is techincally a form of decontenting, but is somewhat accepted in the market since it helps keep the sticker from rising. Whether Lexus does this with the next GS remains to be seen.
One thing to consider here:
5 Series is/has been offered in two six cylinder variants, one V8, and one high performance model. On top of that, there are sedans and wagons.
E Class has a V6, V8, high performance model, and diesel. Once again, sedans and wagons, and this time around there is a coupe which is selling pretty darn well.
Lexus offers just sedans, and gives you three engine choices - two of which are very low volume.
The GS certainly has its share of shortcomings - space, driver involvement, power - but I don't think those are the primary reasons why it has "failed" like so many people say. If you look at the numbers realistically, a sedan that has three engine choices really has no chance of competing with the 5 and E based on models alone. No coupes, no wagons, no convertibles, and no high performance versions. I'm also not saying that those models make up a sizeable chunk of sales (because, for the most part, they don't - E coupe being the exception), but the GS line is limited in exposure, options, and choices.
I think it would be wise for Lexus to introduce an entry level model - a la 528i - the next time around. A 250ish hp V6 would be fine for most people, just like it is for 528i owners who seem to make up 95% of 5 Series buyers where I live. At first thought you might think that such a model would compete with the ES 350 but IMO Lexus needs to put more effort into differentiating these two models anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. This would make the GS available to all of the badge-*****s while also adding (hopefully) some extra volume to the fleet.
My ideal 4GS lineup would look something like:
GS "300" - ~250hp V6, starting at ~$42,000
GS "350" - ~320hp V6, starting at ~$47,000
GS "450h" - ~350hp hybrid V6, starting at ~$54,000
GS "500" - ~400hp V8, starting at ~$59,000
GS F - ~500hp, starting at $80,000
With lithium ion technology, I would like to see the 450h focus more on efficiency than power, because truthfully I think the performance of the car is great as-is. I don't think there is a huge need to pump more power under the hood - just give us a competitive V8 model that finally delivers upon that premise. With recent strides that have been made with hybrid technology, I think 32-33MPG combined is to be expected.
I think there is still a market for V8s here and I hope Lexus doesn't ignore it. There will be plenty of people who want the gusto and smoothness of a V8 but don't want the GS F's look, glitz, glam, noise, price, and maintenance costs. There truly is a market here and I hope that Lexus doesn't drop it.
Furthermore, I think a V8 GS is needed to help maintain economies of scale for the LS. If the LS was the only model using that V8 the cost would go up. Also, if Lexus creates a GS coupe (which I am betting they will), there certainly needs to be an 8 cylinder version to compete with the E, 6 series, and others.
5 Series is/has been offered in two six cylinder variants, one V8, and one high performance model. On top of that, there are sedans and wagons.
E Class has a V6, V8, high performance model, and diesel. Once again, sedans and wagons, and this time around there is a coupe which is selling pretty darn well.
Lexus offers just sedans, and gives you three engine choices - two of which are very low volume.
The GS certainly has its share of shortcomings - space, driver involvement, power - but I don't think those are the primary reasons why it has "failed" like so many people say. If you look at the numbers realistically, a sedan that has three engine choices really has no chance of competing with the 5 and E based on models alone. No coupes, no wagons, no convertibles, and no high performance versions. I'm also not saying that those models make up a sizeable chunk of sales (because, for the most part, they don't - E coupe being the exception), but the GS line is limited in exposure, options, and choices.
I think it would be wise for Lexus to introduce an entry level model - a la 528i - the next time around. A 250ish hp V6 would be fine for most people, just like it is for 528i owners who seem to make up 95% of 5 Series buyers where I live. At first thought you might think that such a model would compete with the ES 350 but IMO Lexus needs to put more effort into differentiating these two models anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. This would make the GS available to all of the badge-*****s while also adding (hopefully) some extra volume to the fleet.
My ideal 4GS lineup would look something like:
GS "300" - ~250hp V6, starting at ~$42,000
GS "350" - ~320hp V6, starting at ~$47,000
GS "450h" - ~350hp hybrid V6, starting at ~$54,000
GS "500" - ~400hp V8, starting at ~$59,000
GS F - ~500hp, starting at $80,000
With lithium ion technology, I would like to see the 450h focus more on efficiency than power, because truthfully I think the performance of the car is great as-is. I don't think there is a huge need to pump more power under the hood - just give us a competitive V8 model that finally delivers upon that premise. With recent strides that have been made with hybrid technology, I think 32-33MPG combined is to be expected.
I think there is still a market for V8s here and I hope Lexus doesn't ignore it. There will be plenty of people who want the gusto and smoothness of a V8 but don't want the GS F's look, glitz, glam, noise, price, and maintenance costs. There truly is a market here and I hope that Lexus doesn't drop it.
Furthermore, I think a V8 GS is needed to help maintain economies of scale for the LS. If the LS was the only model using that V8 the cost would go up. Also, if Lexus creates a GS coupe (which I am betting they will), there certainly needs to be an 8 cylinder version to compete with the E, 6 series, and others.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,277
Likes: 3
From: USA
^ The article had these pics.
Looks like the existing car with an undercover facelift to update the bumpers similar to the update done for the 2011 IS.
If you remember, the Lexus marketing VP said the 2011 IS update was a significant shift in styling and they were going to make a similar significant update to the GS.
Looks like the existing car with an undercover facelift to update the bumpers similar to the update done for the 2011 IS.
If you remember, the Lexus marketing VP said the 2011 IS update was a significant shift in styling and they were going to make a similar significant update to the GS.
Guest
Posts: n/a
IT DOESN'T MATTER. HP rating as you stated is not everything.
Lexus needs to continue to diversify the GS. They need a F-sport package out the gate as well as parts.
They need a GS C coupe.
They need a GS F.
i think it's silly to just look at "how much power can be squeezed out of the isf engine" and say lexus is doing a stupid job. there are a lot of things that go into the car design. if we want to talk about power, long long time ago, the celica engine, toyota race engineers already used them on the supra and pushing 600hp. does that mean we need to use that setup everywhere?
answer is no. when you put something in a car, especially a luxury car, a lot of things have to be considered. reliability, driving conditions, smoothness, quietness, cost, etc... all have to be factored.
yes, looking at the isf v8, i am more than sure doing 600hp is no problem on that engine. but it might not be as smooth, it might be too loud, it might not last as long. have you considered all that?
on the other hand, i am not giving lexus excuse. putting 450hp (if) on the gsf would be a dumb decision imho.
250 on the gs, i don't condone, but bmw is doing that on their 528, and if that helps the car sell, guess it's not my problem. i just don't pay attention to that
answer is no. when you put something in a car, especially a luxury car, a lot of things have to be considered. reliability, driving conditions, smoothness, quietness, cost, etc... all have to be factored.
yes, looking at the isf v8, i am more than sure doing 600hp is no problem on that engine. but it might not be as smooth, it might be too loud, it might not last as long. have you considered all that?
on the other hand, i am not giving lexus excuse. putting 450hp (if) on the gsf would be a dumb decision imho.
250 on the gs, i don't condone, but bmw is doing that on their 528, and if that helps the car sell, guess it's not my problem. i just don't pay attention to that
One thing to consider here:
5 Series is/has been offered in two six cylinder variants, one V8, and one high performance model. On top of that, there are sedans and wagons.
E Class has a V6, V8, high performance model, and diesel. Once again, sedans and wagons, and this time around there is a coupe which is selling pretty darn well.
Lexus offers just sedans, and gives you three engine choices - two of which are very low volume.
The GS certainly has its share of shortcomings - space, driver involvement, power - but I don't think those are the primary reasons why it has "failed" like so many people say. If you look at the numbers realistically, a sedan that has three engine choices really has no chance of competing with the 5 and E based on models alone. No coupes, no wagons, no convertibles, and no high performance versions. I'm also not saying that those models make up a sizeable chunk of sales (because, for the most part, they don't - E coupe being the exception), but the GS line is limited in exposure, options, and choices.
I think it would be wise for Lexus to introduce an entry level model - a la 528i - the next time around. A 250ish hp V6 would be fine for most people, just like it is for 528i owners who seem to make up 95% of 5 Series buyers where I live. At first thought you might think that such a model would compete with the ES 350 but IMO Lexus needs to put more effort into differentiating these two models anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. This would make the GS available to all of the badge-*****s while also adding (hopefully) some extra volume to the fleet.
My ideal 4GS lineup would look something like:
GS "300" - ~250hp V6, starting at ~$42,000
GS "350" - ~320hp V6, starting at ~$47,000
GS "450h" - ~350hp hybrid V6, starting at ~$54,000
GS "500" - ~400hp V8, starting at ~$59,000
GS F - ~500hp, starting at $80,000
With lithium ion technology, I would like to see the 450h focus more on efficiency than power, because truthfully I think the performance of the car is great as-is. I don't think there is a huge need to pump more power under the hood - just give us a competitive V8 model that finally delivers upon that premise. With recent strides that have been made with hybrid technology, I think 32-33MPG combined is to be expected.
I think there is still a market for V8s here and I hope Lexus doesn't ignore it. There will be plenty of people who want the gusto and smoothness of a V8 but don't want the GS F's look, glitz, glam, noise, price, and maintenance costs. There truly is a market here and I hope that Lexus doesn't drop it.
Furthermore, I think a V8 GS is needed to help maintain economies of scale for the LS. If the LS was the only model using that V8 the cost would go up. Also, if Lexus creates a GS coupe (which I am betting they will), there certainly needs to be an 8 cylinder version to compete with the E, 6 series, and others.
5 Series is/has been offered in two six cylinder variants, one V8, and one high performance model. On top of that, there are sedans and wagons.
E Class has a V6, V8, high performance model, and diesel. Once again, sedans and wagons, and this time around there is a coupe which is selling pretty darn well.
Lexus offers just sedans, and gives you three engine choices - two of which are very low volume.
The GS certainly has its share of shortcomings - space, driver involvement, power - but I don't think those are the primary reasons why it has "failed" like so many people say. If you look at the numbers realistically, a sedan that has three engine choices really has no chance of competing with the 5 and E based on models alone. No coupes, no wagons, no convertibles, and no high performance versions. I'm also not saying that those models make up a sizeable chunk of sales (because, for the most part, they don't - E coupe being the exception), but the GS line is limited in exposure, options, and choices.
I think it would be wise for Lexus to introduce an entry level model - a la 528i - the next time around. A 250ish hp V6 would be fine for most people, just like it is for 528i owners who seem to make up 95% of 5 Series buyers where I live. At first thought you might think that such a model would compete with the ES 350 but IMO Lexus needs to put more effort into differentiating these two models anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. This would make the GS available to all of the badge-*****s while also adding (hopefully) some extra volume to the fleet.
My ideal 4GS lineup would look something like:
GS "300" - ~250hp V6, starting at ~$42,000
GS "350" - ~320hp V6, starting at ~$47,000
GS "450h" - ~350hp hybrid V6, starting at ~$54,000
GS "500" - ~400hp V8, starting at ~$59,000
GS F - ~500hp, starting at $80,000
With lithium ion technology, I would like to see the 450h focus more on efficiency than power, because truthfully I think the performance of the car is great as-is. I don't think there is a huge need to pump more power under the hood - just give us a competitive V8 model that finally delivers upon that premise. With recent strides that have been made with hybrid technology, I think 32-33MPG combined is to be expected.
I think there is still a market for V8s here and I hope Lexus doesn't ignore it. There will be plenty of people who want the gusto and smoothness of a V8 but don't want the GS F's look, glitz, glam, noise, price, and maintenance costs. There truly is a market here and I hope that Lexus doesn't drop it.
Furthermore, I think a V8 GS is needed to help maintain economies of scale for the LS. If the LS was the only model using that V8 the cost would go up. Also, if Lexus creates a GS coupe (which I am betting they will), there certainly needs to be an 8 cylinder version to compete with the E, 6 series, and others.
The competition is THICK in this class. Lexus needs to make the GS stand out again and it can't depend on hybrids. They styling has been knocked off by multiple brands.
I would love to see a more fuel efficient hybrid. Why can't the GS offer two hybrids, one for economy, one more for performance?
My interests is mainly in a GS F. Next the next GSh. A coupe would be GREAT.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 904
Likes: 3
From: Florida
^ The article had these pics.
Looks like the existing car with an undercover facelift to update the bumpers similar to the update done for the 2011 IS.
If you remember, the Lexus marketing VP said the 2011 IS update was a significant shift in styling and they were going to make a similar significant update to the GS.
Looks like the existing car with an undercover facelift to update the bumpers similar to the update done for the 2011 IS.
If you remember, the Lexus marketing VP said the 2011 IS update was a significant shift in styling and they were going to make a similar significant update to the GS.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,266
Likes: 2
From: Washington
Why are people getting hyped up over an article that's rehashing things that were thought up over a year ago. All they're doing here is repeating an original source, I think motortrend. No one said motortrend was right. The only thing I think we can expect is the torque vectoring system. If they're going to use the IS-F's engine, it will probably be based off of it, I doubt they'll use the exact same engine as the IS-F and leave it at that. The IS-F's engine can already put out 425hp with a different exhaust. Don't read too much into these articles. I expect the GS to weigh less, handle better and produce more power with better fuel economy and better looks. We'll see soon.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 531
Likes: 2
From: CA
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 22,608
Likes: 105
From: Waiting for next track day
4GS mule spotted
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/05/s...aught-testing/
Following our report that the Lexus GS is scheduled to get a rather extensive overhaul next year, our spies have captured this test mule of Lexus' next 5 Series fighter out on the road.
Even though this mule uses the current GS body, we can see that extra panels have been added around the wheel wells, meaning a wider track is probably in order. What's more, the reworked GS underpinnings will go on to form the groundwork for the smaller, overhauled IS, which is set to debut in 2013.
Expect to see the next-gen GS show its restyled body within the coming months, with an official debut happening sometime next year. For now, click through the gallery to see high-res shots of the early-build mule roaming the streets.
Following our report that the Lexus GS is scheduled to get a rather extensive overhaul next year, our spies have captured this test mule of Lexus' next 5 Series fighter out on the road.
Even though this mule uses the current GS body, we can see that extra panels have been added around the wheel wells, meaning a wider track is probably in order. What's more, the reworked GS underpinnings will go on to form the groundwork for the smaller, overhauled IS, which is set to debut in 2013.
Expect to see the next-gen GS show its restyled body within the coming months, with an official debut happening sometime next year. For now, click through the gallery to see high-res shots of the early-build mule roaming the streets.
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
From: NYC
The competition is THICK in this class. Lexus needs to make the GS stand out again and it can't depend on hybrids. They styling has been knocked off by multiple brands.
I would love to see a more fuel efficient hybrid. Why can't the GS offer two hybrids, one for economy, one more for performance?
I would love to see a more fuel efficient hybrid. Why can't the GS offer two hybrids, one for economy, one more for performance?
These two statements in bold seem to contradict, no? Anyway, Lexus is having a hard time selling (1) GS hybrid in any significant numbers, why on Earth would they offer 2? That makes zero sense and would be a very very poor business decision on their part and a waste of resources (something they would never do). In my opinion, they should offer 3 different GS variants and try to get the sales numbers up:
GS350 (volume model)
GS350H (with 2.5 V6 instead of the 3.5)
GS-F (sole V8 model)
They need to give the customer a REASON to buy the hybrid over the base V6 model (aka better fuel efficiency). And they also need to give the customer a reason to buy the GS-F (if the customer wants V8 performance, they're going to have to go all out and buy the F model).
I think these 3 options would make perfect business sense and would cater to three completely different customers, as well as effectively differentiating the GS lineup. Lexus does not need a standard V8 model in addition to a GS-F. Too many V8s - it just would not make sense for them to do that.
Having a GS350 and a GS350h would confuse people because people are that dumb. A 400h or 450h would be better for differentiation. I wonder how difficult it would be to have a **** similar to the one on the CT that would remap the car 3 different ways. Eco which would neuter it but give a nice fuel economy bump (10-15), normal which would help it drive like the 350 with a little extra torque off the line and 5-10 better mpg, and sport which would make it drive more like the current GSh with more power.
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
From: NYC
Having a GS350 and a GS350h would confuse people because people are that dumb. A 400h or 450h would be better for differentiation. I wonder how difficult it would be to have a **** similar to the one on the CT that would remap the car 3 different ways. Eco which would neuter it but give a nice fuel economy bump (10-15), normal which would help it drive like the 350 with a little extra torque off the line and 5-10 better mpg, and sport which would make it drive more like the current GSh with more power.
I really hope they don't offer a 2.5 liter and a 3.5 liter in their standard forms however. There is no need to offer an underpowered GS unless you have the extra benefits of the hybrid for added efficiency. Would be a mistake IMO to just drop the 2.5 from the IS into the GS - would cheapen the GS too much, IMO.
I would also like to add that offering a GS-E (plug in electric GS) wouldn't be such a bad idea either at some point down the line
So I'll amend my list to what I hope they will do with the next generation:
GS350
GS350h
GS-E
GS-F
Guest
Posts: n/a
These two statements in bold seem to contradict, no? Anyway, Lexus is having a hard time selling (1) GS hybrid in any significant numbers, why on Earth would they offer 2? That makes zero sense and would be a very very poor business decision on their part and a waste of resources (something they would never do). In my opinion, they should offer 3 different GS variants and try to get the sales numbers up:
GS350 (volume model)
GS350H (with 2.5 V6 instead of the 3.5)
GS-F (sole V8 model)
They need to give the customer a REASON to buy the hybrid over the base V6 model (aka better fuel efficiency). And they also need to give the customer a reason to buy the GS-F (if the customer wants V8 performance, they're going to have to go all out and buy the F model).
I think these 3 options would make perfect business sense and would cater to three completely different customers, as well as effectively differentiating the GS lineup. Lexus does not need a standard V8 model in addition to a GS-F. Too many V8s - it just would not make sense for them to do that.
Most people equate hybrids with fuel efficiency, not power. Thus a GSh with a smaller engine would make more sense.
I am still under the belief the next GS 450h or whatever will replace the traditional V-8 460 in the next lineup. Thus why I think 2 would make sense. One for efficiency, one for power.
Sales were fine, they simply dwindled as the model got older. Your proposal makes little sense at all and its not even worth refuting.
I actually disagree that calling it a 350h would confuse people. I understand your point of making it a 400h instead for differentiating purposes, and perhaps you're right, but I don't think calling it a 350h would make a huge difference. The point is, I would just like to see them base the hybrid model off the 2.5 V6 instead of the 3.5 liter.
I really hope they don't offer a 2.5 liter and a 3.5 liter in their standard forms however. There is no need to offer an underpowered GS unless you have the extra benefits of the hybrid for added efficiency. Would be a mistake IMO to just drop the 2.5 from the IS into the GS - would cheapen the GS too much, IMO.
I would also like to add that offering a GS-E (plug in electric GS) wouldn't be such a bad idea either at some point down the line
So I'll amend my list to what I hope they will do with the next generation:
GS350
GS350h
GS-E
GS-F
I really hope they don't offer a 2.5 liter and a 3.5 liter in their standard forms however. There is no need to offer an underpowered GS unless you have the extra benefits of the hybrid for added efficiency. Would be a mistake IMO to just drop the 2.5 from the IS into the GS - would cheapen the GS too much, IMO.
I would also like to add that offering a GS-E (plug in electric GS) wouldn't be such a bad idea either at some point down the line
So I'll amend my list to what I hope they will do with the next generation:
GS350
GS350h
GS-E
GS-F
http://www.flickr.com/photos/67028814@N00/4215186075/
There are tons of small engine German cars. Lexus should offer a 2.5 or 3.0 entry level model here. So its not really being "cheap" if that is what the market wants.
With higher MPG standards these companies will need to expand engine lineups.
Last edited by LexFather; Oct 5, 2010 at 02:06 PM.