GS350 or BMW 528 (real buying intended)
09-24-07, 11:56 AM
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I cross-shopped the GS450h and BMW 550i. Though not exactly what you're doing, it's pretty similar. I ended up getting the Lexus. Here are some observations in no particular order:
* It seems your wife really cares about brand. In my opinion the 5-series offers more snob-appeal. That was one of the main reasons I ended up not getting it.
* The iDrive on the BMW is just plain terrible, but I don't think you'd have it on the 528 unless you got the navigation system.
* Ergonomics on the Lexus beats BMW in most respects. However, certain upgraded BMW driver seats offer a lot more customization choices (such as hip width adjustment, and thigh length adjustment)
* The amount of storage room on the 550i was ludicrous; I would guess it's the same way on the 528. The middle console had place just for a cell phone and nothing else!
* Handling was much better on the 5-series.
* BMWs offer terrible value for the money, if you buy. Leasing, however is a totally different story. BMW is famous for having the sneaky back-end type of incentives on the leases by offering inflated residuals. Leasing a $45K GS would cost as much as leasing a $55K BMW for this reason.
* Lexus routine maintenance costs are sky-high. My local dealer wants $100 for oil change and tire rotation (hence, they will never get my business). BMW offers free service for the first four years. Of course, that's still not nearly enough to compensate for the inflated pricing (if you buy, and not lease).
* It seems your wife really cares about brand. In my opinion the 5-series offers more snob-appeal. That was one of the main reasons I ended up not getting it.
* The iDrive on the BMW is just plain terrible, but I don't think you'd have it on the 528 unless you got the navigation system.
* Ergonomics on the Lexus beats BMW in most respects. However, certain upgraded BMW driver seats offer a lot more customization choices (such as hip width adjustment, and thigh length adjustment)
* The amount of storage room on the 550i was ludicrous; I would guess it's the same way on the 528. The middle console had place just for a cell phone and nothing else!
* Handling was much better on the 5-series.
* BMWs offer terrible value for the money, if you buy. Leasing, however is a totally different story. BMW is famous for having the sneaky back-end type of incentives on the leases by offering inflated residuals. Leasing a $45K GS would cost as much as leasing a $55K BMW for this reason.
* Lexus routine maintenance costs are sky-high. My local dealer wants $100 for oil change and tire rotation (hence, they will never get my business). BMW offers free service for the first four years. Of course, that's still not nearly enough to compensate for the inflated pricing (if you buy, and not lease).
It appears, perhaps, that more Lexus owners buy and more BMW owners lease. Does that mean Lexus owners tend to hold onto their vehicles much longer? What's your timeline for owning the GS?
09-24-07, 12:40 PM
#17
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I think I will own my GS for quite some time (more than 5 years, maybe less than 10). If you plan on keeping your new car (and your wife 
) for a while, probably would opt to go with the Lexus instead of BMW for a lower cost of ownership experience... the car that is, not the wife.
) for a while, probably would opt to go with the Lexus instead of BMW for a lower cost of ownership experience... the car that is, not the wife.
09-24-07, 02:02 PM
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1. BMW residuals are incredibly high (the most recent ranking had them #2 - just behind Lexus - even though the residuals I've seen on Lexus vehicles - especially the GS are incredibly low)
2. BMW subsidizes many of their lease payments (in the form of lower Money Factors, aka interest rates).
So in the end, you can get a more expensive car for much less per month with no worries about maintenance.
09-24-07, 02:23 PM
#19
I think I will own my GS for quite some time (more than 5 years, maybe less than 10). If you plan on keeping your new car (and your wife ) for a while, probably would opt to go with the Lexus instead of BMW for a lower cost of ownership experience... the car that is, not the wife.
) for a while, probably would opt to go with the Lexus instead of BMW for a lower cost of ownership experience... the car that is, not the wife.
09-24-07, 03:09 PM
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id say it depends on lease/ buy. im gonna lease the wife a 3 series early next year. 4 year lease = cheap payments, no maintenance costs... DONE... i think the maintenance is 4yr/ 48K, so i just have to make sure she stays under the mileage limit... i DONT want to have to worry about her car... her shopping is hard enough to deal with...
if i were to buy the car, id would 100 times out of 100, go with the lexus. We've put 240K on an old LS before... no prob, just regular maintenance...
my sister has gone through several BMWs - an old 325 convertible, a newer 328, and the new 528... she claims she could have leased an extra car with all her maintenance bills... What does she drive now? RX330 and she LOVES it... she's always been sort of a snob, but now with a kid, she's grown to love the RX330 and doesn't mind that its a "mom's ride"...
also, i agree w/ others... look into the new G35 and the M35 infinitis... still classy and that VQ motor will run forever...
when i bought my GS, i looked briefly at the 5 series, but in the end it wasn't a contest... from a tech/ comfort standpoint, BMW can't even come close...
if i were to buy the car, id would 100 times out of 100, go with the lexus. We've put 240K on an old LS before... no prob, just regular maintenance...
my sister has gone through several BMWs - an old 325 convertible, a newer 328, and the new 528... she claims she could have leased an extra car with all her maintenance bills... What does she drive now? RX330 and she LOVES it... she's always been sort of a snob, but now with a kid, she's grown to love the RX330 and doesn't mind that its a "mom's ride"...
also, i agree w/ others... look into the new G35 and the M35 infinitis... still classy and that VQ motor will run forever...
when i bought my GS, i looked briefly at the 5 series, but in the end it wasn't a contest... from a tech/ comfort standpoint, BMW can't even come close...
09-24-07, 03:18 PM
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i know its not the same, but here's a comparison...
im now driving the yukon denali in our family now, and in doing so, realize how NICE lexus really is...
navigation - cant compare. graphics on GM nav is HORRIBLE... ease of use SUCKS
ventilated seats - NONE in the denali...
remote - i have a cheesy piece of crap instead of the keyless fob...
stereo - the bose SUCKS compared to the ML
interior - i already have a schedule appt as the headliner is coming apart and the cup holder doesnt close... (i only have 3000 miles on the car)
other - right window squeaks when it closes... also, lexus NEEDS to have remote start as a standard option... i do love it in the GM...
in the end, i never realized how NICE lexus is until i started driving something else... i been in plenty of BMWs... 7s, 5s, M3s... but i think you (and your wife) will be happier in the end with the LEX.
im now driving the yukon denali in our family now, and in doing so, realize how NICE lexus really is...
navigation - cant compare. graphics on GM nav is HORRIBLE... ease of use SUCKS
ventilated seats - NONE in the denali...
remote - i have a cheesy piece of crap instead of the keyless fob...
stereo - the bose SUCKS compared to the ML
interior - i already have a schedule appt as the headliner is coming apart and the cup holder doesnt close... (i only have 3000 miles on the car)
other - right window squeaks when it closes... also, lexus NEEDS to have remote start as a standard option... i do love it in the GM...
in the end, i never realized how NICE lexus is until i started driving something else... i been in plenty of BMWs... 7s, 5s, M3s... but i think you (and your wife) will be happier in the end with the LEX.
09-24-07, 08:20 PM
#22
Ugh... yes, you are not biased and yet you are getting a GS460 when it come out....(no matter what the HP).
The BMW was the worst of the cars tested. It received a "marginal" rating - it did not receive the "Poor" rating - wouldn't the poor rating be the worst? Per BMW
“The issue is that depending on the location of seat, the location of dummy, the location of the sled, the results could change,” he said. “This was one test on one day on one car.”
That said, the 2008 interior was changed and could have affected the result. Still, if you are worried about side impacts, then consider a Tahoe or Suburban, they will both do better - size for size.
As a former GS430 owner, I can tell you there is a lot more about the 5-series that appeals to me other than the driving experience. Comments like this "Interior in bmw is no where near the quality of a lexus in terms of craftsmanship and material. " are just plain asinine.
Anyway, not to turn this into a BMW vs. Lexus thread again, but you are far from biased. TMQ, please do your own research and let us know what you decide. Lexus it the right car for many, but comments like whlkev's are not helpful in you making the right decision for yourself.
The BMW was the worst of the cars tested. It received a "marginal" rating - it did not receive the "Poor" rating - wouldn't the poor rating be the worst? Per BMW
“The issue is that depending on the location of seat, the location of dummy, the location of the sled, the results could change,” he said. “This was one test on one day on one car.”
That said, the 2008 interior was changed and could have affected the result. Still, if you are worried about side impacts, then consider a Tahoe or Suburban, they will both do better - size for size.
As a former GS430 owner, I can tell you there is a lot more about the 5-series that appeals to me other than the driving experience. Comments like this "Interior in bmw is no where near the quality of a lexus in terms of craftsmanship and material. " are just plain asinine.
Anyway, not to turn this into a BMW vs. Lexus thread again, but you are far from biased. TMQ, please do your own research and let us know what you decide. Lexus it the right car for many, but comments like whlkev's are not helpful in you making the right decision for yourself.
09-28-07, 07:52 AM
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I've read some information that said the GS is actually one of the least reliable Lexus models (of course, relatively speaking), and that the 5 series (inline6) is actually pretty good (i.e. on par if not better than the GS). The overall Lexus brand reliability is way ahead of BMW, and it seems some models like the X5 etc. are very problematic.
Do you have any information that either support or go against such information?
Do you have any information that either support or go against such information?
09-28-07, 11:39 AM
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^ The problem with reliability/initial quality studies is that they're not timely and usually are at least 18 months old when published. The early 3GS was dinged due to frequent complaints about rattles and squeaks (search the earlier threads for details), remember the 3GS had an early 2005 launch but was labeled an '06 model. Seems that the '07s fixed the early issues. Can't comment at all on the 5 series . . .
09-30-07, 07:26 AM
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Thanks for the all the comments and helpful suggestions. The purchase won't happen for a while and there's time to do some research. It's nice to have choices, and of course it's also difficult when both choices are intriguing.
It appears, perhaps, that more Lexus owners buy and more BMW owners lease. Does that mean Lexus owners tend to hold onto their vehicles much longer? What's your timeline for owning the GS?
It appears, perhaps, that more Lexus owners buy and more BMW owners lease. Does that mean Lexus owners tend to hold onto their vehicles much longer? What's your timeline for owning the GS?
09-30-07, 09:07 AM
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first i would say that my first car was a 1998 gs400. I looked at getting the bmw 540 and still went with the gs4. My second car was a 2001 bmw Dinan3 (330i). I finally understood what the phrase fun to drive meant. So all of the comments that i am going to make are from experience not surveys or other forms of data.
Problems with the 1998 GS 400:
rear door lock actuator broke-fixed under warranty
sunshade rattle-replaced whole sunroof under warrant, but problem not resolved
frozen Brakes- replaced, but not a warranty item.
condensation in front headlights-replaced under warranty.
Car sold at 49k miles
Problems with 2001 Dinan 3
broken window regulator- 82k fixed by myself car out of warranty
bad oxygen sensor at 85k- dealer fixed out of warranty
broken sunshade clips 91k -never fixed
broken coolant expansion tank-dealer fixed out of warranty
Car flooded and totaled at 100,040 miles
Now on to my search for a new vehicle:
I had my heart set on the 335I coupe. I test drove the sedan and didn't feel it was enough of an upgrade over the Dinan.
I then went to the Lexus dealership to look at the gs350 awd.
The interior seemed ok although I was not thrilled with the seats. My girlfriend like it and wanted me to purchase it. I decided to also look at a used 2002 GS430 and not have a car note, so we then went to a few used car dealers. One had a 545i, that as we walked by she asked me to test drive. I never like the styling of the new 5 and never considered buying one. From the time I sat in the car I was in love. The interior fit me like a glove. During and after the test drive I was all smiles. It gave me the same feeling the previous 2 cars I bought supplied while driving them.
I then went back to the lexus dealer for a test drive. During and after the test drive I felt like i the gs was nothing more than a camry or accord. I couldn't justify spend 52k on a car that had no personality.
My search now switched to finding an 04 545i fully loaded with sports and premium packages including head-up display. I searched every night on the cpo section of bmwusa and after 2 weeks found a car with 36k miles on it. test drove it and made the purchase.
I have no loyalty to bmw, lexus,or anyone else. I just wanted a car that put a smile on my face every time i drove it. I prefer the bmw interiors to the lexus ones in every way. I happend to love idrive, and mastered it after driving the car 2 times. As far as technology, I have bluetooth, ipod intergration, logic 7 stereo, head-up display and no cassette deck. Why the hell does the gs come with a cassette deck?
I just was at the lexus event at 6 flags and the only car that i would consider if I was in the market is the is350. it isn't a better car than the 3 series, but given the price difference the lexus wins. Price is what it boils down to for most people when i read why the bought the lexus. Based off of experience I don't see how lexus is any more reliable than BMW. My 98 gs4 had no technology. compare that with the 3 gs and u see as they increased the techno quality dropped, and this goes for every car manufacturer. Ask how reliable the es is right now? If u r that worried about paying for repairs buy an extended warranty!
Problems with the 1998 GS 400:
rear door lock actuator broke-fixed under warranty
sunshade rattle-replaced whole sunroof under warrant, but problem not resolved
frozen Brakes- replaced, but not a warranty item.
condensation in front headlights-replaced under warranty.
Car sold at 49k miles
Problems with 2001 Dinan 3
broken window regulator- 82k fixed by myself car out of warranty
bad oxygen sensor at 85k- dealer fixed out of warranty
broken sunshade clips 91k -never fixed
broken coolant expansion tank-dealer fixed out of warranty
Car flooded and totaled at 100,040 miles
Now on to my search for a new vehicle:
I had my heart set on the 335I coupe. I test drove the sedan and didn't feel it was enough of an upgrade over the Dinan.
I then went to the Lexus dealership to look at the gs350 awd.
The interior seemed ok although I was not thrilled with the seats. My girlfriend like it and wanted me to purchase it. I decided to also look at a used 2002 GS430 and not have a car note, so we then went to a few used car dealers. One had a 545i, that as we walked by she asked me to test drive. I never like the styling of the new 5 and never considered buying one. From the time I sat in the car I was in love. The interior fit me like a glove. During and after the test drive I was all smiles. It gave me the same feeling the previous 2 cars I bought supplied while driving them.
I then went back to the lexus dealer for a test drive. During and after the test drive I felt like i the gs was nothing more than a camry or accord. I couldn't justify spend 52k on a car that had no personality.
My search now switched to finding an 04 545i fully loaded with sports and premium packages including head-up display. I searched every night on the cpo section of bmwusa and after 2 weeks found a car with 36k miles on it. test drove it and made the purchase.
I have no loyalty to bmw, lexus,or anyone else. I just wanted a car that put a smile on my face every time i drove it. I prefer the bmw interiors to the lexus ones in every way. I happend to love idrive, and mastered it after driving the car 2 times. As far as technology, I have bluetooth, ipod intergration, logic 7 stereo, head-up display and no cassette deck. Why the hell does the gs come with a cassette deck?
I just was at the lexus event at 6 flags and the only car that i would consider if I was in the market is the is350. it isn't a better car than the 3 series, but given the price difference the lexus wins. Price is what it boils down to for most people when i read why the bought the lexus. Based off of experience I don't see how lexus is any more reliable than BMW. My 98 gs4 had no technology. compare that with the 3 gs and u see as they increased the techno quality dropped, and this goes for every car manufacturer. Ask how reliable the es is right now? If u r that worried about paying for repairs buy an extended warranty!
10-03-07, 08:02 PM
#28
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As someone else has pointed out, BMW subsidizes their leases VERY heavily. It's a very little known dirty little secret. Once you know it, you would realize that it makes no sense to buy BMWs, only lease. For Lexus the choice is very tough. Leasing or buying are not subsidized in any manner, so it comes down to your personal situation and your expectations of the resale value of a given model vs the Lexus residual. I ended up leasing my GS450h because I like to trade my cars every 2-3 years, and I am not certain about the hybrid's resale value after 3 years. If it were a GS350 I wanted, I would have undoubtedly bought it, because I would've expected to net more from private sale after 2-3 years.
BMW does not subsidize every lease - only when they are doing a promo. And it is not a "little" known secret it is well know - and the subsidizing is done with low interest rates just like a loan and yes, they often offer these interest rates for purchase as well (although not always).
Lexus DOES subsidize leases as well - my GS430 was subsidized. The Lexus December to Remember event is all about this.
10-04-07, 12:40 AM
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This is not to cause any flaming. It seems that the in-laws are willing to get us a ~45K vehicle. I'm the usual prudent one with $ and could buy a Camry or Accord and put the rest into Roth IRA and 529 plans (yeah we have plenty room to contribute). Wife obviously can't say no to a mid size luxury sedan with real brand recognition, even though we don't really have any one to impress.
Time to buy is probably Jan-Feb of 2008.
So the obvious decision comes down to the new GS350 or BMW 528. As you can see, horsepower is not a deciding factor, and sports package or large wheels are not important either. That way, the total cost is probably similar, with more value on the Lexus side. Reliability is pretty important - overall BMW can't compare to Lexus. I read that the 3 and 5 series are actually pretty good, and 528 is obviously a safe choice with the inline 6.
If you have bought the GS or plans to buy, and perhaps have cross-shopped the 5 series, I'd appreciate some views, regarding interior, exterior, reliability, and driving characteristics.
When I have time, I will go to the dealers and do a test drive. Obviously have to dress a little nicer so won't get ignored.
Time to buy is probably Jan-Feb of 2008.
So the obvious decision comes down to the new GS350 or BMW 528. As you can see, horsepower is not a deciding factor, and sports package or large wheels are not important either. That way, the total cost is probably similar, with more value on the Lexus side. Reliability is pretty important - overall BMW can't compare to Lexus. I read that the 3 and 5 series are actually pretty good, and 528 is obviously a safe choice with the inline 6.
If you have bought the GS or plans to buy, and perhaps have cross-shopped the 5 series, I'd appreciate some views, regarding interior, exterior, reliability, and driving characteristics.
When I have time, I will go to the dealers and do a test drive. Obviously have to dress a little nicer so won't get ignored.
I went in wearing a t-shirt, jeans, flip flops and a baseball cap and I surely didn't get ignored.
10-04-07, 12:56 PM
#30
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Wrong
BMW does not subsidize every lease - only when they are doing a promo. And it is not a "little" known secret it is well know - and the subsidizing is done with low interest rates just like a loan and yes, they often offer these interest rates for purchase as well (although not always).
Lexus DOES subsidize leases as well - my GS430 was subsidized. The Lexus December to Remember event is all about this.
BMW does not subsidize every lease - only when they are doing a promo. And it is not a "little" known secret it is well know - and the subsidizing is done with low interest rates just like a loan and yes, they often offer these interest rates for purchase as well (although not always).
Lexus DOES subsidize leases as well - my GS430 was subsidized. The Lexus December to Remember event is all about this.
But the real BMW subsidies come in the form of inflated residuals. Now these babies do make a HUGE difference in monthly payments. BMW has inflated residuals on most of their models (though the levels obviously vary by model popularity). These high residuals have very little to do with what BMW expects to net when selling an off-lease car; they represent manufacturer incentives for lessees. And it is a very little known fact among BMW buyers that the company does that. To give you an example, my GS450h lease has a 53% residual, while a 550i had a 62% subsidized residual at the time I was shopping.
When I was shopping for a car, a 550i with MSRP $15,000 more than the GS450h was going to run me about as much in monthly lease payments due to the residual and money factor subsidies.