Actually, no. The new IS will be in soon and I'll listen to it. I never had an interest in audio and much less the LS430.

What are you trying to say? Is there an inaccuracy you want to point out about my statement?

 

Really? Sounds like you have an interest in audio, why else would you provide us with your critique of ML?

 

Uh... if you have never heard it and don't even have an interest in audio then how do you honestly believe you have a basis for which to make the statement that the ML sounds bland.

I've heard it and you'd have a VERY hard time surpassing such spot-on imaging and enveloping sound without using very expensive aftermarket sound processors, custom speaker installation points (surround sound speaker installation of course requires much more innovation in the aftermarket realm).

There's absolutely no way you could get even close to as good of sound for the the 2,000 bucks the ML system costs. My old Chevy Silverado had a 3-way MB Quart QSD setup w/ PP4125 4-channel 125rms amp powering the front speakers only - this is an msrp of over 3 grand in the front speakers ALONE, not to mention head unit, rear speakers (just for fill), other amps, the subs, enclosures, etc. The entire setup was around 9k msrp. It sounded clearer and hit harder than the ML system I've heard in the 06+ GS, but the imaging was still sorely lacking as was the mid-bass... even after all that effort. And again, we're talking about a 9k aftermarket system with theft potential and taking up valuable space, plus requiring disassembly of the car... vs 2k oem system, perfectly integrated, unlikely to be stolen, and not taking up any room or adding any unnecessary weight.

 

I am not exactly an audiophile, but I have been a reluctant ABRSM trained classical pianist and have developed a keen appreciation for the quality of audio playback. I have also been exposed in the course of my work, many many home and listening room audio setups with various components including mixed and pure Mark Levinson/Harman Intl setups.

You do not need to be an audiophile to comment on audio quality. I do not dislike audio, I simply do NOT care for it, and all the audio setups I have encountered in my life is extremely far from reproducing accurately the full tonal quality of the sound I know best, the pianoforte sound. So there is nothing in audio for me, a simple Becker would make me as happy as a full ML set, both are far from even approximating the real thing.

If you accept what I have disclosed, and place a little credence in my hearing ability, then this is what I have found:

I have found ML audio quality to endeavour to be perfectly neutral. The speaker setup reflects this. The subwoofer mounted at the bottom of the windscreen is smallish. The Lexus CDs must be specially produced and equalized, because Disc 1 Song 8 bass is so incredible sounding on the system, but even with other reference CDs I cannot reproduce the quality of bass which is present in Disc 1 Song 8.

There is no warm quality but you cannot say that the tonal quality is metallic and cold. It is perfectly neutral. This very much approximates the tonal quality I hear in full blown custom listening room installations using ML components.

The ASL (auto sound levelling) function works wonders especially in tropical rain, it raises the volume so transparently that it's unperceptible.

The Surround Function severely degrades the tonal quality, but you get an uncanny audio positioning effect which is interesting by itself. This audio positioning works not only for the driver, but for all 4 seats except for rear centre which I find that the audio positioning confuses the mind and you feel sort of lobotomized if you listen too long in the rear centre.

The audio positioning crosshairs work to some extent. Centering in on the rear back, for example, does wonders to improve the positioning for only him, but compromises far too much for the rest, so I recommend that the setting should be left at default - centre of the car.

As I said, if you prefer a neutral response, the ML setup is for you. If you prefer coloration in your audio, for example you prefer typical valve amps to typical solid state amps, you are better off aftermarket.

 

uhhh.... yea... sounds good to me

 

I have not listened to other ML setups in other cars, but I know the ML sound profile, and I commented based on my experience with land based listening room setups. I never said the ML sounds `bland' - far from it! - I merely said that it has a dry quality, read as `neutral'. A very flat response curve. As flat as I can imagine it to be. Free of coloration.

One of the reasons why I don't have an interest in `audio' especially ICE and home theatre, is that I cannot understand sufficiently the emphasis it places on mind-bending surround technologies. With surround, that's what my mind feels - bent. That's just me - some terrible surround systems cause me to have a shortness of breath, anxiety, and lobotomizing confusion.

The DSP introduces delays in speaker output to simulate a surround effect, and while it works superficially, my mind feels confused because the surround effect is probably not sufficiently well modelled enough to bluff my subconscious. So I comment very little on the positioning, and if it helps, I can say that my mind feels better (least confused) with the ML system compared to some systems based on the Sensaura, Qsound, Dolby Virtual Surround and other HRTF methods.

 

This answer was plenty enough.

 

ML systems for a standard "room" and ML for the Lexus are two totally different things to be honest with you. Listen to the other various ML systems in the other Lexus vehicles like them or not, and you will hear and experience alot of variation. To say you know the ML sound profile for a listening room has nothing to do with ML car audio dynamics. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

 

LOL! Excellent technique for credibility assasination without me having recourse to cross examine of the assasin. Bravo!

 

Sounds logical. But, by that, do you actually mean that for the threadstarter to decide whether to get the ML or not, he has to listen and compare the GS implementation with the IS and the LS? Why is that a relevant factor in the threadstarter's decision on whether to decide on an ML or not for his GS?

 

Everyone has their own preferences. Not everyone has the same likes or tastes. One person may love vanilla more than chocolate and another person may like chocolate more than vanilla. My response to the thread starter was:

"There is a big difference between the two! Don't let the salesperson try to talk you out of what you want to buy. Hear them both to make a good decision whether you want to get it or not. good luck!"

Since we've veered way off topic...the discussion is about getting Mark Levinson on his New GS purchase or not. Plain and simple. Lets keep this on topic please.

 

Sorry but if you haven't ever heard an ML car system you have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Heck, I have heard the same brand of system sound drastically different from one generation of the exact same car to the next (loved the Bose system for what it was in the 95-99 Maximas, but it went to complete crap for the 00 and above models)

Oh, and a flat response curve is one of the primary goals of any audiophile quality system. It indicates completely accurate reproduction, or at least completely true and accurate assuming the original recording was completely true and accurate. And if you want to mess that up (as most people do), well, here's the EQ... go to town.

Surround sound is not a perfect technology, no, but it is a more realistic representation of true to life human hearing unless you are listening to a concert with every last instrument within the width of a 2-channel sound stage, and everything else in the room is completely sound deadened (ceiling, floor, walls, chairs, etc) to the point that there will be absolutely no sound coming from the sides or behind you to display the size and characteristics of the room you're in, then surround sound is required to at least begin to simulate this.

A lot of the DVD-A and SACD discs out there actually attempt to place you in what would be the middle of the stage, so you feel like you're not only at the concert but have an 'on stage' pass to it.

 

regarding Mark Levinson sound systems. I try to keep a GS300 with Mark Levinson system in the showroom at all times. It is the benchmark from which I compare other systems to. Percy is the best analyst on the car audio front that I've read and he doesn't particularly like the ML GS system. He feels that the Titanium tweeters are too bright and hurt his ears at volume. The two most difficult sounds to reproduce are the human voice (especially soprano) and the Piano. MichaelTan has heard the rich tonal qualities of Steinway, Baldwin and probably Bosendorfer live and recording them and playing it back never fully recreates the original sound. The same piano may sound different in different conditions and venues. I think he was alluding to live vs. reproduced and then further processed. He has an appreciation more for the real thing vs. playback...

The car listening enviroment is pretty small. The GS system will decode DTS and Dolby 5.1 Surround Sound and uses the Sony/Phillips 24 bit word standard decoder. The 5.1 means that it has 5 separate channels of sound information and a subwoofer. The sub is small in stature in the GS but it gets the job done and uses the trunk as an enclosure. The Mark Levinson system takes the 5.1 information and allocates it into 7.1 speaker arrangement with 330 Watts of power. This can best be demonstrated using a movie DVD or DVD-A disc. There is so much more audio information on a DVD than on a CD or MP3 player. The problem is that there exists only about 300 titles in DVD audio. Blue Man Group is one of the best titles to demonstrate the system with. You get the sensation that you are in the studio with BMG. I would welcome DVD audio to expand but it seems that IPOD's and MP3's are the most popular format due to size and portability.

I don't think it would be that easy to build your own system and equal the Mark Levinson if you were spending say $1500 in components. The extra sound controls would not be available and no DVD movie playback. Not to mention you wouldn't get the back up camera or Navigation. Since all of these systems are joined in one package it makes the compelling case to spend the extra money and get it all. When the day comes to resell or trade it in it will be more valuable and attractive to the buyer also.

Until the new 19 speaker LS460 ML system comes to market the GS is my reference system. We just received the first IS250 w/Mark Levinson and I am going to see how that compares today. It is similar in configuration but a little less amplification at 300 Watts. Percy preferred it though and I respect his opinion....

Rock

 

Do you feel the Mark Lev in the new GS is better than that in the "old" LS430? I had an 06 GS300 loaner from the dealership over the weekend a few months back.. it had nav and lev. It sounded very different from the lev in the LS430 but I didn't get enough seat time in the LS to really say one was better or worse.

In regards to the IS' ML system, I kinda wonder why they'd even bother to put a slightly lower power amp in there. I'd actually like to see somebody snap a shot of the amp from both cars. I wouldn't be surprised if they appear to be identical inside and out. Might just be one of those things for marketing, like how the 98-02 Camaro Z28s were rated at 305hp while the Vettes were rated at 350hp despite having the exact same motor and on dynos putting out essentially the exact same power to the wheels (actually the vettes are often 2-3hp shy due to IRS' additional parasitic loss)

Regardless, the IS is a significantly smaller cabin so even if it is down on power I'd tend to guess the overall relative SPL is the same or higher.

 

any Surround Sound capability. It is basically a very good 2.0 system even though it has a subwoofer. Percy seems to like the sound quality of the LS and he has expert ears but we are all entitled to our opinions which is all the fun of subjective criticism. I rank the GS as our best and I will reserve second for now to the IS next which is very similar. Then the LS and GX. The LX and SC next. The ES and RX are minutely better than the stock Pioneer systems IMO. The older GS and LS Nakamichi systems were great in their day too....

The GS has a lot more capability when you add the Nav, Mark Levinson and back up camera. I think it would be a shame not to get it if is affordable. The GS300 has a nice balance to it yet it also changes character with 18" wheels and tires. sorry if I'm rambling off topic....

Rock