LOW TORQUE problem - DYNO sheet to prove it
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LOW TORQUE problem - DYNO sheet to prove it
Im a recent newbie to this forum and love being a member!
I got my 01 430 in June with 116k and a super gem that someone really took good care of and also happened to come with CS Teins and MRR's!
Ive already started with some basic mods and was determined to get a stock dyno reading to see what kind of power they truly make. I was disapointed and slightly concerned to see the torque as low as it was; from other stock dynos Ive seen, it looks to be around 20tq too low.
I have since installed an Injen short ram 2 weeks ago and just had a custom 2.5" mandrel xpipe exhaust installed last weekend (PPE and A/F controller next). I'm ready to run it again but need to fix the unkown problem so I can to get my TQ back to parr.
There is a long list of possibilities that can create this and want to see if anyone had any recommendations that maybe I havent heard before. There are several minor maintenances I had already wanted to perform before I found this out i.e. fuel filter, spark plugs, T/B cleaning, MAF cleaning etc, my plan is to do all the basics and head back to the shop for a run with fingers crossed but thats not very reassuring to me.
What could be causing spot on HP and low TQ; I dont understand why both aerent being effected, there's no CEL and it runs great. Any feedback is ALWAYS appreciated!
btw - to my dismay a 16yr girl who just got her license the DAY before backed into my rear passenger door while driving daddy's 08' CLK 350 convertible, so baby was just dropped off for repairs Sunday $940
(the picture doesn't do justice but its still minor)
I got my 01 430 in June with 116k and a super gem that someone really took good care of and also happened to come with CS Teins and MRR's!
Ive already started with some basic mods and was determined to get a stock dyno reading to see what kind of power they truly make. I was disapointed and slightly concerned to see the torque as low as it was; from other stock dynos Ive seen, it looks to be around 20tq too low.
I have since installed an Injen short ram 2 weeks ago and just had a custom 2.5" mandrel xpipe exhaust installed last weekend (PPE and A/F controller next). I'm ready to run it again but need to fix the unkown problem so I can to get my TQ back to parr.
There is a long list of possibilities that can create this and want to see if anyone had any recommendations that maybe I havent heard before. There are several minor maintenances I had already wanted to perform before I found this out i.e. fuel filter, spark plugs, T/B cleaning, MAF cleaning etc, my plan is to do all the basics and head back to the shop for a run with fingers crossed but thats not very reassuring to me.
What could be causing spot on HP and low TQ; I dont understand why both aerent being effected, there's no CEL and it runs great. Any feedback is ALWAYS appreciated!
btw - to my dismay a 16yr girl who just got her license the DAY before backed into my rear passenger door while driving daddy's 08' CLK 350 convertible, so baby was just dropped off for repairs Sunday $940
(the picture doesn't do justice but its still minor)
BTW that sucks bout the car but least she had insurance
As mentioned earlier it is def...a combination between wheels and that exhaust. HOWEVER, it is still VERY VERY low numbers for a stock GS4XX! You're actually about 30whp too low and almost 40wtq too low! The car may drive nice and smooth but something is in need of serious replacement/maintenance. I would check spark plugs, MAF sensor, O2 sensors, air filter and clean the throttle body. The MAF sensor and O2 sensors DO NOT necessarily have to throw a CEL code when their on the way out. They could be performing very poorly and not sending the correct A/F message to and from the ECU and engine.
It's crazy because your car is a great example of how you would NEVER know if your car is underperforming or not unless you had it dyno'd.
That's why whenever I hear (or read) people say they have raced a GS4XX and beat it, the first thing that comes to mind is that the GS4XX is at least almost 6 years old and can be as old as 12 years! So, there are MANY variables with older cars such as, it could very well be not performing like it did when it was new(er); lost a lot of power over the years due to lack of maintenance.
In any event...check those items I mentioned. If all those items are good to go get a compression test done on the cyclinders; perhaps one is not working efficiently.
I am sure you will get it up to normal power levels in no time. FYI...I lost about 6whp and around 20wtq when I put my heavier 19" wheels but it was almost 30 degrees warmer outside too so...
Good luck and keep us updated.
It's crazy because your car is a great example of how you would NEVER know if your car is underperforming or not unless you had it dyno'd.
That's why whenever I hear (or read) people say they have raced a GS4XX and beat it, the first thing that comes to mind is that the GS4XX is at least almost 6 years old and can be as old as 12 years! So, there are MANY variables with older cars such as, it could very well be not performing like it did when it was new(er); lost a lot of power over the years due to lack of maintenance.
In any event...check those items I mentioned. If all those items are good to go get a compression test done on the cyclinders; perhaps one is not working efficiently.
I am sure you will get it up to normal power levels in no time. FYI...I lost about 6whp and around 20wtq when I put my heavier 19" wheels but it was almost 30 degrees warmer outside too so...
Good luck and keep us updated.
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the car was stock when it was tested with exception of k&n drop in, that was the whole point in dynoing it stock first so I can see what kind of power the mods make.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
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From: CA
As mentioned earlier it is def...a combination between wheels and that exhaust. HOWEVER, it is still VERY VERY low numbers for a stock GS4XX! You're actually about 30whp too low and almost 40wtq too low! The car may drive nice and smooth but something is in need of serious replacement/maintenance. I would check spark plugs, MAF sensor, O2 sensors, air filter and clean the throttle body. The MAF sensor and O2 sensors DO NOT necessarily have to throw a CEL code when their on the way out. They could be performing very poorly and not sending the correct A/F message to and from the ECU and engine.
It's crazy because your car is a great example of how you would NEVER know if your car is underperforming or not unless you had it dyno'd.
That's why whenever I hear (or read) people say they have raced a GS4XX and beat it, the first thing that comes to mind is that the GS4XX is at least almost 6 years old and can be as old as 12 years! So, there are MANY variables with older cars such as, it could very well be not performing like it did when it was new(er); lost a lot of power over the years due to lack of maintenance.
In any event...check those items I mentioned. If all those items are good to go get a compression test done on the cyclinders; perhaps one is not working efficiently.
I am sure you will get it up to normal power levels in no time. FYI...I lost about 6whp and around 20wtq when I put my heavier 19" wheels but it was almost 30 degrees warmer outside too so...
Good luck and keep us updated.
It's crazy because your car is a great example of how you would NEVER know if your car is underperforming or not unless you had it dyno'd.
That's why whenever I hear (or read) people say they have raced a GS4XX and beat it, the first thing that comes to mind is that the GS4XX is at least almost 6 years old and can be as old as 12 years! So, there are MANY variables with older cars such as, it could very well be not performing like it did when it was new(er); lost a lot of power over the years due to lack of maintenance.
In any event...check those items I mentioned. If all those items are good to go get a compression test done on the cyclinders; perhaps one is not working efficiently.
I am sure you will get it up to normal power levels in no time. FYI...I lost about 6whp and around 20wtq when I put my heavier 19" wheels but it was almost 30 degrees warmer outside too so...
Good luck and keep us updated.
I thought the same thing....if I didnt dyno I would never know my power down because it runs so nicely. I know larger wheels have an affect but can they have that much of a negative impact, I did have MRR's on it at the time of dyno which are not the lightest but still? If I added 6 and 20 from your message above I would feel comfortable with the numbers if heavy rims make that much of a difference. The few stock dyno sheets Ive seen are around 210hp and 225tq...I personally havent seen anything higher than that stock, is it supposed to be higher than that?
the car was stock when it was tested with exception of k&n drop in, that was the whole point in dynoing it stock first so I can see what kind of power the mods make.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
You do lose power on our cars by uping to 2.5" tubing. The GS does not do well with exhaust mods since the stock exhaust is pretty much the best design for it already.
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thats what I keep hearing....Im gonna be the guinny pig for everyone on this to see what the dyno says about it. You may be right, in fact Ive heard that enough times to think you are probably correct but I wasnt able to substantiate that with any dyno sheets, it was all hear-say for me. At this point it's already installed and sounds great.....Im ready to take it like a champ if it under-performs.
God willing I get my car back this weekend Im going to change the plugs (prob NGK), clean the MAF, T/B and run some injector cleaner. Im hoping to feel a noticable difference indicating I fixed the issue but if that doesnt happen I will look next to o2 sensors and compression test next.
I thought the same thing....if I didnt dyno I would never know my power down because it runs so nicely. I know larger wheels have an affect but can they have that much of a negative impact, I did have MRR's on it at the time of dyno which are not the lightest but still? If I added 6 and 20 from your message above I would feel comfortable with the numbers if heavy rims make that much of a difference. The few stock dyno sheets Ive seen are around 210hp and 225tq...I personally havent seen anything higher than that stock, is it supposed to be higher than that?
I thought the same thing....if I didnt dyno I would never know my power down because it runs so nicely. I know larger wheels have an affect but can they have that much of a negative impact, I did have MRR's on it at the time of dyno which are not the lightest but still? If I added 6 and 20 from your message above I would feel comfortable with the numbers if heavy rims make that much of a difference. The few stock dyno sheets Ive seen are around 210hp and 225tq...I personally havent seen anything higher than that stock, is it supposed to be higher than that?
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ROCK thanks for the info - I read another convo you had with another member who also had low numbers and his were even higher than mine......not good I definitely have a problem. At first I thought the auto trans must be robbing TONS of power, Ive never owned or dyno'd an auto before but I know they lose more power than manual........I thought to myself.........this is crap......100hp LESS thats 33% loss vs expected 18-20%. Your numbers are really impressive, if I could get to 250 I would be happy and anything over that ...well you know
still on fence with TM plugs
TM vs NGK hmm
still on fence with TM plugs
TM vs NGK hmm
Last edited by BigSexy; Nov 17, 2010 at 02:04 PM.
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the car was stock when it was tested with exception of k&n drop in, that was the whole point in dynoing it stock first so I can see what kind of power the mods make.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
In fact the real motivator for me was to test the exhaust set up I chose to go with; there seems to be a lot of people that think going 2.5 will make me lose performance which I completely disagree with, but maybe Im wrong. I just dont see how any engine that produces 300hp and all that cfm to go with cant utilize 2.5" tubing especially once I get my hands on PPE and A/F.
I project making a nice increase in HP and TQ, I know its gonna "seem" like I lost TQ but I believe whats gonna happen is Ill lose the TQ at low low rpm and it will actually increase at a higher rpm. The TQ curve will just move over a little bit on the grid.
Of all the cars Ive moded never has there been a situation where stock piping out performed aftermarket....and if that happens here I will be very surprised.
from many readings and articles i can tell you that the 2.5 is affecting your torque thats if all ur exhaust system is 2.5 on all n/a' you dont wanna go over 2.25 only turbos benefit from bigger exhaust..
*also short ram intakes lower your torque but increase your hp over stock setup
*longer intakes like cold air intakes that go down the side of your car will increase torque but not really pick up much hp.
* stock intake systems fall in the middle and are a perfect balance of torque and hp.
me personnnaly i dont mess with the intake system i just do the drop in k&n filter thats why im curious to find out what you got with yours since im going to do mines soon.
* also your wheel size is affecting the torque and power.. go down to 17's and you will see an increase in torque and power
hope it helps
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WHAT WAS THE POWER GAIN WHEN YOU DROPPED IN THE K&N FILTER ? IM CURIOUS TO KNOW SINCE IM GONNA GET ONE SOON?
from many readings and articles i can tell you that the 2.5 is affecting your torque thats if all ur exhaust system is 2.5 on all n/a' you dont wanna go over 2.25 only turbos benefit from bigger exhaust..
*also short ram intakes lower your torque but increase your hp over stock setup
*longer intakes like cold air intakes that go down the side of your car will increase torque but not really pick up much hp.
* stock intake systems fall in the middle and are a perfect balance of torque and hp.
me personnnaly i dont mess with the intake system i just do the drop in k&n filter thats why im curious to find out what you got with yours since im going to do mines soon.
* also your wheel size is affecting the torque and power.. go down to 17's and you will see an increase in torque and power
hope it helps
from many readings and articles i can tell you that the 2.5 is affecting your torque thats if all ur exhaust system is 2.5 on all n/a' you dont wanna go over 2.25 only turbos benefit from bigger exhaust..
*also short ram intakes lower your torque but increase your hp over stock setup
*longer intakes like cold air intakes that go down the side of your car will increase torque but not really pick up much hp.
* stock intake systems fall in the middle and are a perfect balance of torque and hp.
me personnnaly i dont mess with the intake system i just do the drop in k&n filter thats why im curious to find out what you got with yours since im going to do mines soon.
* also your wheel size is affecting the torque and power.. go down to 17's and you will see an increase in torque and power
hope it helps
THIS IS THE DEBATE THAT IM GOING TO TEST. 1.97" vs 2.5".
V8 engines can definitely benefit from 2.5 but of course if you have a V8 with 190hp then 2.5" exhaust is not necessary but if your pushing some ponies you're gonna want 2.5. to me this is like exhaust 101 - V8 = 2.5 standard
I'm used to push-rod engines so I may be in for a rude surprise to find out this set up is NOT GOOD for an advanced VVT engine like 3UZ and that's what I'm gonna get to the bottom of. So far I'm the odd man out cause several people have told me its not a wise set up yet at the same time NO DYNO SHEETS, NO PROOF just words and I haven't been able to find a single person running a 2.5 mandrel exhaust set up on a GS who has modded it, tuned it and dyno'd it. + plus I wanted a 1 of a kind sound and performance.
I'll sell you the K&N for $20 and was just recharged like brand new a few weeks ago - pm me
Last edited by BigSexy; Nov 17, 2010 at 09:17 PM.