COOLIS

I agree, however, Audi doesn't really make a car that one can compare to the ES objectively. Actually, none of the Germans really make a car that can be objectively compared to the ES IMO.

LexBob2

I'm currently shopping for a car to replace our '16 A6, and the ES350 is on the list. The A6 and ES is a tough comparison with each having their own unique strengths and weaknesses. IMO they really don't compete with each other. Congrats to AllinCLE on getting a new A6 as a loaner. I tried for for one the last time my car was in for service but the dealer didn't have one available. BTW the A6 replaced a Q5 which we really liked.

SW17LS

The difference is in the aestetic, not in an objective comparison of quality and build. The A6 has better quality materials, build tolerances are tighter, tech is way better all you would expect given the price difference. Audis and other German cars have a "feel" that is different than Lexus' "feel" though, and that includes granier leathers if they aren't the Napa options.

I'm not sure what detailing you're mentioning, I just dont at all see how the ES feels more expensive inside than an A6, certainly not a Prestige A6.

That doesnt surprise me at all, but just because someone doesnt understand why one thing is better than the other doesnt mean it isn't better. I know several people who have traded "better" German cars in for the ES and have liked them fine. What you get is the size of a midsized luxury car or even bigger for the price of a compact car...thats compelling and thats what drew me to the ES when I had both of the ones I had. BUT, thats achievable because the ES lacks all of the engineering and platform and beneath the surface benefits that those midsized vehicles from MB, Audi, BMW etc have.

This is for sure true.

AllinCLE

It's a more relevant comparison than you seem to think for two important reasons:

• The ES will be Lexus' only mid-size offering after this model year. The GS program will not be extended for another generation and has already bee discontinued in other markets. This is a big reason why the 7th generation ES turned out to be such a massive improvement over the 6th generation. There is no denying the 2019 is a distinct departure from the character of the previous cars. 2019 ES is punching above its weight class because it's going to need to.
• The A6 is also a Front Wheel Drive (FWD) based platform. In fact it's sold as Even the Quattro A6's 2019 and onward are not full time all wheel drive. They are FWD with AWD on-demand. They call it Quattro with Ultra now.

The A6 is, in fact, the perfect German mid-size luxury car for Lexus to target as a competitive benchmark, which is why to me this is a fun comparison of two cars with distinct personalities. I would expect the ES to add AWD during this production cycle, among other enhancements, as Lexus repositions the ES into the heart of the mid-size luxury sedan market.

SW17LS

That doesnt mean that the ES is comparable to the cars the GS competed against, it just means that Lexus is pulling out of that market segment. The ES does not punch at that level, without the GS Lexus will simply not have a car that truly is a peer of the A6, 5 Series, E Class, etc

Thats not really accurate. The A6 does come with FWD as standard, but not in the US and the A6 is not a transverse layout car like the ES. The A6 is a longitudinally laid out car with a proper weight distribution and is 100% rear biased AWD in the US...the ES is not comparable.

Adding AWD to the ES isn't going to change the fact that its a transverse layout car, derived from a Toyota with macpherson struts and a 60% front weight bias and is designed at a $40k entry point. The cars are just not in the same league.

To be clear, I am not disparaging the ES, the ES is a fabulous car for what it costs...but it isn't comparable to an A6, 5 Series, E Class, etc...those cars are on another level and cost a lot more money comparably equipped. Like you said that A6 Prestige was $20k more than a loaded ES350, and it itself didnt have the upgraded leather or seats, etc.

mikemu30

A6 tops out over $80k compared to $53k or so for the ES. I agree this comparison is goofy based on that alone.

AllinCLE

While the engine is longitudinally mounted, the car operates primarily as a FWD car, virtually all of the time except when slip is detected. It is the REAR driveshaft that decouples under normal driving conditions. The car also has a sizable front weight bias. These are anyone's opinion, but facts you can verify in Audi literature, and magazine reviews, such as Car and Driver.

And like it or not, the vast majority of consumers couldn't tell a MacPherson strut from a hole in the ground, nor do they care to. Enthusiasts do care, but enthusiasts don't drive the market. If they did, the majority of vehicles on the road today wouldn't exist, including the ES.

And the market does lump these two vehicles into the same vehicle segment: midsize luxury sedans.

Let me resummarize my impression after owning one and spending a few days with the other: The A6 does more things better than the ES, but the few things the ES does better, I currently care more about. It's purpose built for long range cruising and comfort, which is 80% of the 30,000mi/yr that I drive. Saying I prefer that is not a knock on the A6 that a handful of people seem to think I'm making.

AllinCLE

Thanks, yeah Cascade Audi really took care of me. I brought my engineering manager who works for me along on the trip and we were both very glad we didn't have to make the trip in the first loaner.

mikemu30

I dont think anyone feels you are knocking the Audi but we're just struggling with the comparison when its a bit of apples and oranges regardless of how they are both classified.

SW17LS

The system is quite different than the AWD system we see Toyota using with the powertrain in the ES in other applications. Yes the rear decouples, but only when cruising, under acceleration load the rear stays connected and it still has a rear power bias. Toyota's system is always a 70% front power bias, driving feel is very different.

Just because consumers may not "know the difference" doesnt mean there isnt a difference and that difference is not worthwhile. And, I think more people notice the difference than you think...you did...all the drive and ride attributes you praised the A6 for over the ES are because of the more sophisticated multi-link suspension. The car just feels on another level from the ES on the road, and thats why.

They're not typically cross shopped because the A6 is so much more expensive, and is so different. People choose the ES over the A6 if they do cross shop because its cheaper, and they don't desire or recognize why the A6 (or 5 series or E Class) is commanding that premium. If the ES were $72k like that A6 they wouldnt sell any of them.

The comparison just screams "fanboy". If somebody offered you an even trade for an A6...you'd take it I love my LS but if somebody offered me an even trade for an S Class, I'd take it lol.

JDR76

The A6, despite having a longitudinally mounted engine, is not well balanced. It has the weight distribution of a typical FWD car. The only thing the mounting does is fix torque steer.

SW17LS

Did you drive the new one? I found it way better in that regard than the outgoing car.

JDR76

I did recently get to drive one. Very nice! You can hide a lot of that nose heavy nature behind the gobs of power. So fun!

AllinCLE

You guys are really hung up on the word comparison, eh? One can compare and contrast any two items. In fact, by definition, one could not logically hold the opinion that one item (let's say an A6) is superior to another (ES350) unless he/she had COMPARED them and reached that conclusion. Sheesh!

I stated what I like and dislike about a different vehicle I had for several days a service loaner. I compared it to my daily driver, pondering on what I felt were strengths and weaknesses of both. If that is difficult to comprehend, it's going to really blow someone's mind when they find out I run through the same thought exercise sometimes driving my partner's Q5, which obviously is an SUV ::gasp::

AllinCLE

Your second attempt at describing how Quattro Ultra works is just as inaccurate as your first. That is not at all how it works! Here is a very simple explanation: "In a bid for increased fuel efficiency, the A6 has adopted Audi's Quattro with Ultra all-wheel-drive system, which disengages the rear axle under light loads to reduce mechanical drag but seamlessly reengages it when the drive-mode selector is in the Dynamic setting, when the driver’s inputs imply a certain amount of frisky driving, or when the car senses or predicts slippage at the wheels." So, in most conditions it's only powering the front wheels.

That price gap is has only grown so wide this year. It's worth pointing out that pricing on the 2019 A6 took a hefty step up the price ladder itself. A well equipped 2019 A6 is now more expensive than the previous generation S6!

I am not a fan boy, I didn't even like the last Lexus we owned (last gen RX). I'm comfortable enough with my vehicle choice to compare objectively to what else is out there. If I wanted an A6, I'd just go buy one. We have an Audi, I'm comfortable with the brand and the dealer nearby. If I felt the ES was completely outclassed and the A6 was overwhelmingly better, I'd say so. It's a good car, but it's not special in my eyes after driving it. I definitely do not see it up on the same pedestal you think it belongs on.