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That's strange because the ES250 has been in the Chinese market since 2013. I'm more annoyed by Lexus shifting to power numbers instead of engine displacement, like how an RX200t became an RX300 despite there being a V6 3.0 RX300 in the past.
about the es, i think lexus has done pretty well with this redesign but like a camry it's now trying to cover a lot of marketing ground from sensible entry luxury to phony sporty sleek luxo sedan. when i see a camry xse with all the extra trim and 'fast lookimg bits' i always think, there's a poser car bought by someone who can't afford a real sport sedan. The es f-sport is a joke.
won't get into gs but if it's dead, it's sad and rip.
the es was designed to sell and find a niche as a large mid size car for the price of a c class. It will sell in bunches and i'll yawn every time i see one.
about the es, i think lexus has done pretty well with this redesign but like a camry it's now trying to cover a lot of marketing ground from sensible entry luxury to phony sporty sleek luxo sedan. when i see a camry xse with all the extra trim and 'fast lookimg bits' i always think, there's a poser car bought by someone who can't afford a real sport sedan. The es f-sport is a joke.
won't get into gs but if it's dead, it's sad and rip.
the es was designed to sell and find a niche as a large mid size car for the price of a c class. It will sell in bunches and i'll yawn every time i see one.
Completely agree. If it's trying to be a sports sedan, it's a complete poser and unworthy of that description. The F-Sport is a purely cosmetic preference but nothing about the car should be construed as sporty. However, it's probably the best entry luxury / premium FWD in the business and should be judged on those merits.
I don't think they have put that much money into this new 7ES.
I suspect the money has been channelled into "electrification" - which is the way to the future...
It never was, and it never will be. Hydrogen on the other hand...
That's strange because the ES250 has been in the Chinese market since 2013. I'm more annoyed by Lexus shifting to power numbers instead of engine displacement, like how an RX200t became an RX300 despite there being a V6 3.0 RX300 in the past.
M-R-deux, that's a good one
Lexus is coming the German's number scene. Its all about marketing.
The MB C-Class is a C300 and the BMW 3 Series are 320, 330, and 340. Psychologically - some people will see the Lexus IS"200" or any "200" as a lesser car because its a smaller number. Lexus up their numbers to match the Germans to give it a more match appeal. I know - we humans are stupid.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Wow a lot of discussion here.
about the es, i think lexus has done pretty well with this redesign but like a camry it's now trying to cover a lot of marketing ground from sensible entry luxury to phony sporty sleek luxo sedan. when i see a camry xse with all the extra trim and 'fast lookimg bits' i always think, there's a poser car bought by someone who can't afford a real sport sedan. The es f-sport is a joke.
won't get into gs but if it's dead, it's sad and rip.
the es was designed to sell and find a niche as a large mid size car for the price of a c class. It will sell in bunches and i'll yawn every time i see one.
I agree with this 100%.
The 2018 Camry XSE V6 is definitely a poser car. Every time I see one on the road, it annoys me how phony it is (no offense to any owners - just my personal opinion). I just can't stand the 2018 Camry XSE V6's fake quad exhaust, rear tacky fake rear diffuser, and etc... The 2018 Camry XSE V6 is made to look like a "sporty" car but drives like the previous gen Camry.
I think the 19 ES is a well designed car, it will be a good car for the masses, and I also like it overall as a car. However - I also don't like the ES in general because its Camry/Avalon in a suit selling for over 50K. If I wanted to blow over 50K on a car, I'll get something that is not badge-engineered nor FWD.
Yep, 2001 GS300, 2008 GS350 and 2013 GS350. I have bought them all and never leased a single Lexus in my life. Unfortunately, I am done with this brand.
It's been a good run, but where this company is going is just not for me. When other brands expend, Lexus does the opposite?! Soon they will complete with Honda / Acura.
I think the F-Sport options are more for looks when it comes to CT, NX, RX, and now ES sales. Most people who buy these vehicles are attracted to that package for the appearance, not because you can switch the suspension settings or gain handling. The general buying public are not enthusiasts, but don't mind some extra style (similar mantra for the Camry XSE). I predict the ES F-Sport will go over okay, similar to how the NX and RX take rate is.
Lexus is coming the German's number scene. Its all about marketing.
The MB C-Class is a C300 and the BMW 3 Series are 320, 330, and 340. Psychologically - some people will see the Lexus IS"200" or any "200" as a lesser car because its a smaller number. Lexus up their numbers to match the Germans to give it a more match appeal. I know - we humans are stupid.
I agree with this 100%.
The 2018 Camry XSE V6 is definitely a poser car. Every time I see one on the road, it annoys me how phony it is (no offense to any owners - just my personal opinion). I just can't stand the 2018 Camry XSE V6's fake quad exhaust, rear tacky fake rear diffuser, and etc... The 2018 Camry XSE V6 is made to look like a "sporty" car but drives like the previous gen Camry.
I think the 19 ES is a well designed car, it will be a good car for the masses, and I also like it overall as a car. However - I also don't like the ES in general because its Camry/Avalon in a suit selling for over 50K. If I wanted to blow over 50K on a car, I'll get something that is not badge-engineered nor FWD.
Hey BippuLexus,
We agree on a lot of topics, but I have to partially disagree with your “Camry Poser statement”. Yes the Camry might look like it’s trying too hard to be “hip” to the average car enthusiast. Almost like a 45 year old dad dressed in skinny leg jeans. But with sedan sales declining overall in the North American market Toyota designers and engineers had to throw everything they had at the Camry to make it appeal to those 3 box sedan buyers who might otherwise choose a SUV because they found it to meh.
The Camry handles pretty well, it’s actaully not a bad ride for a car riding on 19” rims. For many the Camry XSE V6 is the closest many American car buyers will ever get to being behind the wheel of a sporty car. People are excited about the 2018 Camry and enthusiastic to buy one. Now depending on how you interpid the phrase “Poser” are you talking about the car or the owner behind the wheel? The owner is not at all trying to be a poser, they simply can’t. It’s a Camry at the end of the day.
Now grant it when I see one pull up next to me in my GS F Sport I’m like damn that’s a nice Camry! Would I buy one, probably not, does the owner feel proud to own their Camry XSE I’m pretty sure they do. My definition of a poser might be different than yours. I feel a poser is a guy in $400k Lamborghini Aventador SV who doesn’t know a damn thing about the car, but knows it’s fast and loud and it turns heads. I just don’t find the Camry capable of posing nor it’s owner. If anything I find the ES more of poser, it’s trying to be something it’s not and the same could potentially be said for some of its owners.
I agree $50k is way too much to be paying for a FWD vehicle. But considering that the average transaction price for a ES will be between $40-$45k I’m sure Lexus is anticipating only a 5-8% of ES customers opting for the top spec $55k ES ultra.
With the F Sport option that might be the sign the GS is history. Love this interior with the tan seats brown dash and bamboo accents. The interior looks great. Glad to see finally the cruise control controls are going from the steering wheel column and now on the front of the steering wheel. Much easier to see and I kept hitting it with my knees.
I think the F-Sport options are more for looks when it comes to CT, NX, RX, and now ES sales. Most people who buy these vehicles are attracted to that package for the appearance, not because you can switch the suspension settings or gain handling. The general buying public are not enthusiasts, but don't mind some extra style (similar mantra for the Camry XSE). I predict the ES F-Sport will go over okay, similar to how the NX and RX take rate is.
F-Sport take on all of those modes is surprisingly large...and since ES F-Sport should be even more different than regular models due to suspension setup, I suspect there will be large take of ES F-Sport models too.
Also for other people - if you are clamoring for European vehicles for RWD, lets recognize European traditions such as sports FWD vehicles. We dont have much problem with having sporty FWD drive like Americans do, which is funny, who is poser then?
Our German reviews of FWD vehicles dont start and end with torque steer when you floor the 300 hp sedan. And we have so many great handling FWD cars. Heck most Audi's these days are FWD, and you dont read anything about torque steer when comparing them to 3 series or C or 5 or E.
The Alfa 156 and 147 were lovely-handling cars and they're both FWD. The 156 GTA didn't have a problem with torque steer and it sounded like a heavenly choir at 7000 rpm - I remember coming back from a test drive with goosebumps all over. Even the big 166 had good handling for its size.
Maybe Europeans aren't as snobbish when it comes to cars because the European market is full of FWD cars with good handling. And if someone wants a Camry with 19" wheels and quad exhausts, who am I to judge? The same could be said of an F-sport ES. I used to be into modding so I understand how some people want to personalize their cars. Otherwise we'd all be driving gray Ladas...
F-Sport take on all of those modes is surprisingly large...and since ES F-Sport should be even more different than regular models due to suspension setup, I suspect there will be large take of ES F-Sport models too.
Also for other people - if you are clamoring for European vehicles for RWD, lets recognize European traditions such as sports FWD vehicles. We dont have much problem with having sporty FWD drive like Americans do, which is funny, who is poser then?
Our German reviews of FWD vehicles dont start and end with torque steer when you floor the 300 hp sedan. And we have so many great handling FWD cars. Heck most Audi's these days are FWD, and you dont read anything about torque steer when comparing them to 3 series or C or 5 or E.
The Audi's that come with 300+ hp have Quattro. The fwd versions of the A4 come in dead last in its class in handling vs the 3 Series, C class, Caddy ATS, Lexus IS and the Jag. I can't think of a German sedan these days that gets near 300hp without AWD. The only FWD cars that handle great are the lighter compacts such as the GTI. I think the Germans have mostly recognized the limitations of FWD and high horsepower so AWD is now becoming the standard. The ES in this regard may be a dying breed and last of the high horsepower FWD vehicles.
Have been carefully looking at pics of the 2019 ES F Sport exterior front/sides and comparing it to the GS F that made its debut two years ago. The ES has a more sloped look like the LS and more swept back headlamps that almost are right over the wheel well.
However, strikingly similar looks to the GS F with my very rough side-by-side photo mashup:
04-26-18, 07:19 PM
