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"why would i need a giant array of rattly squeaky plastic buttons”. Lol, I don’t know what kind of cars you used to drive, but getting up there in years, I can say I’ve driven a lot of cars in those years, and I’ve never found the dash buttons to be “rattly squeaky” source of noise!
the best way to prevent parts from squeaking, failing, moving, rattling, etc is not to design them, engineer them, add padding etc-- it is not have them at all. You've never had finger oils/finger rub away at the button print on a commonly used button?
buttons and switches are all failures waiting to happen whether it's the button itself and whether you need them or not, they're always there along for the ride. Cleaner to just delete as many as you can. of course not every button, but most.
more and more manufacturers are deleting buttons, including lexus (on more modern releases). it's not that other automakers don't see it as a good idea, it's just a slow process at converting because legacy companies move like molasses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... or maybe it does.
the best way to prevent parts from squeaking, failing, moving, rattling, etc is not to design them, engineer them, add padding etc-- it is not have them at all. You've never had finger oils/finger rub away at the button print on a commonly used button?
buttons and switches are all failures waiting to happen whether it's the button itself and whether you need them or not, they're always there along for the ride. Cleaner to just delete as many as you can. of course not every button, but most.
more and more manufacturers are deleting buttons, including lexus (on more modern releases). it's not that other automakers don't see it as a good idea, it's just a slow process at converting because legacy companies move like molasses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... or maybe it does.
Seems logical but I can't recall the last time I had a single button fail on any car I've owned!
I used to have 2016 ES350 (Ultra Luxury) before I switched to LS460 and I remember that ES350 was extremely comfortable. On the long trip I actually enjoyed it. Comfortable seats, nice and quiet. Recently I had a chance to dive 2025 ES350 (base) for about a week and I was greatly disappointed. Seat is very bad, couldn’t make myself comfortable no matter what. Interior feels cheap, stereo sounds mediocre at best and it doesn’t even come with navigation. And on the top of that something was badly rattling inside in the dash (on the Lexus with only 2K miles on it). This is not the ES350 I remember for sure. Are they all that bad these days or this is just base model that got so badly downgraded? I am mostly concerned about seats. I know higher trims would have navigation and ML stereo, but do they have options with different seats?
the best way to prevent parts from squeaking, failing, moving, rattling, etc is not to design them, engineer them, add padding etc-- it is not have them at all. You've never had finger oils/finger rub away at the button print on a commonly used button?
buttons and switches are all failures waiting to happen whether it's the button itself and whether you need them or not, they're always there along for the ride. Cleaner to just delete as many as you can. of course not every button, but most.
more and more manufacturers are deleting buttons, including lexus (on more modern releases). it's not that other automakers don't see it as a good idea, it's just a slow process at converting because legacy companies move like molasses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... or maybe it does.
Seems logical but I can't recall the last time I had a single button fail on any car I've owned!
I like clean design. Plus they all wear out differently, lets say if you use one more than the other. you all know you have finger oil / dark spots on your most frequently used buttons. if anything else buttons are unsightly.
the less buttons (within reason) the better. like when apple deletes stuff as designs get more modern with time.
I guess if you like buttons, you can check out the old Pontiacs. i guess they were cool in the day, but manufacturers are trending towards leaner cleaner designs. They see the big screens and go "yeah we should do that too!"
the best way to prevent parts from squeaking, failing, moving, rattling, etc is not to design them, engineer them, add padding etc-- it is not have them at all. You've never had finger oils/finger rub away at the button print on a commonly used button?
buttons and switches are all failures waiting to happen whether it's the button itself and whether you need them or not, they're always there along for the ride. Cleaner to just delete as many as you can. of course not every button, but most.
more and more manufacturers are deleting buttons, including lexus (on more modern releases). it's not that other automakers don't see it as a good idea, it's just a slow process at converting because legacy companies move like molasses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out... or maybe it does.
I respectfully disagree. Reviewers like Savagegeese have singled out the ES for praise precisely because it has not imitated other makers—the Germans are another example—who are "forcing the issue" by eliminating mechanical controls, which are easy to find and intuitive to operate without taking your eyes off the road. Personally I really like the redundancy of being able to operate, for example, sound system volume with either a dial, the steering wheel or my voice, or to bring up the map on the screen without hunting for it on the screen—just hit the button that says "MAP," no fumbling around.
Many observers believe that one factor in the recent rise of the accident rate after years of decline is the distraction posed by modern infotainment systems and phones. IMO, anything that reduces that is not only pleasant but a plus for safety.
Yes, shoving everything into the screen cuts costs for the manufacturer. If you're GM, you're probably congratulating yourself that the new compact truck forces you into the screen menus to turn the freaking lights on. If you're me, you're cursing them for their cheapout. But there's a reason the CEO of VW has made a public mea culpa that burying everything in screen menus has infuriated consumers and has gone too far, and has pledged to roll some of it back. To me, that's real progress.
If buttons are unnecessary, and the future is solely based on a single screen, try convincing a respectful airplane pilot on the cabin picture to the right.
I respectfully disagree. Reviewers like Savagegeese have singled out the ES for praise precisely because it has not imitated other makers—the Germans are another example—who are "forcing the issue" by eliminating mechanical controls, which are easy to find and intuitive to operate without taking your eyes off the road. Personally I really like the redundancy of being able to operate, for example, sound system volume with either a dial, the steering wheel or my voice, or to bring up the map on the screen without hunting for it on the screen—just hit the button that says "MAP," no fumbling around.
Many observers believe that one factor in the recent rise of the accident rate after years of decline is the distraction posed by modern infotainment systems and phones. IMO, anything that reduces that is not only pleasant but a plus for safety.
Yes, shoving everything into the screen cuts costs for the manufacturer. If you're GM, you're probably congratulating yourself that the new compact truck forces you into the screen menus to turn the freaking lights on. If you're me, you're cursing them for their cheapout. But there's a reason the CEO of VW has made a public mea culpa that burying everything in screen menus has infuriated consumers and has gone too far, and has pledged to roll some of it back. To me, that's real progress.
Even Teslas with mostly no buttons have audio control on the steering wheel. I haven't had to "turn the freaking lights on" in decades and I'm not even sure what a map button is. I use carplay and my map is typically always on screen, same with Tesla. I don't use the majority of the buttons on the ES except for audio control and climate.
Originally Posted by scubapr
If buttons are unnecessary, and the future is solely based on a single screen, try convincing a respectful airplane pilot on the cabin picture to the right.
If you're going to compare a car to a commercial aircraft why don't you go with a cooler one?
If you're going to compare a car to a commercial aircraft why don't you go with a cooler one?
That I like! The ES is more like a commercial aircraft; that's a roadster. That pic is for this same topic but in the LC sub-forum.
Originally Posted by uselessinfodude
...I haven't had to "turn the freaking lights on"...
Me neither, as I have them set to auto since the first day. Still, the other day I was parked with the car on, waiting for someone, and my lights were blinding a couple on a bench. I was able to turn them off in less than a second without fumbling with a screen.
>If you're going to compare a car to a commercial aircraft why don't you go with a cooler one?
Boy that certainly seems comfortable ...
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Every new beginning is some other beginning's end
Current Hers: '24 Lexus ES350 Luxury
Current Mine: '23 Lexus IS350 F Sport/AWD
I like clean design. ...the less buttons (within reason) the better. like when apple deletes stuff as designs get more modern with time.
I like clean design also, but I like function more. If I want my car to do something, I want to command it with the fewest actions necessary. The problem with bad interfaces - both via buttons and via touchscreens - is that bad interfaces require me to spend more actions to get what I want. It is the interface designer's job to figure out what I want and to minimize the effort needed for those actions. So yeah, I agree that rarely used features should go into some menu somewhere in the touchscreen interface. But frequently used features must be accessible within a single touch. And only a button can do that. I dont want to have to look around on my dashboard any more than I want to have to look around in the touchscreen interface to find the command that I want. The steering wheel is large and in the way - we wouldnt replace it with a touchscreen, would we?
Regarding Tesla, the touchscreen interface is atrocious. Button position and text sizing is all wrong in many places. And worse, the touchscreen is too non-haptic to be useful for driving. I have to put extra attention into pressing the right spot, because you cannot tell if you're touching the right part of the screen or not. This is never true for buttons, because of their unique look and feel in the cabin, with a few exceptions.
Also, you are all overlooking the voice interface on the lexus, which is excellent. Most of the obscure controls are accessible through the voice controls, and it really makes things easier. I think voice control is really the future of all controls that don't need real-time access. Seat heaters and coolers, temperature controls, wiper intermittancy, real washer/wiper, panoramic camera settings, all that **** should be voice commands. The voice commands should be made flexible and intelligent enough to figure out what you want or to clarify your request when you ask.
I like clean design also, but I like function more. If I want my car to do something, I want to command it with the fewest actions necessary. The problem with bad interfaces - both via buttons and via touchscreens - is that bad interfaces require me to spend more actions to get what I want. It is the interface designer's job to figure out what I want and to minimize the effort needed for those actions. So yeah, I agree that rarely used features should go into some menu somewhere in the touchscreen interface. But frequently used features must be accessible within a single touch. And only a button can do that. I dont want to have to look around on my dashboard any more than I want to have to look around in the touchscreen interface to find the command that I want. The steering wheel is large and in the way - we wouldnt replace it with a touchscreen, would we?
Regarding Tesla, the touchscreen interface is atrocious. Button position and text sizing is all wrong in many places. And worse, the touchscreen is too non-haptic to be useful for driving. I have to put extra attention into pressing the right spot, because you cannot tell if you're touching the right part of the screen or not. This is never true for buttons, because of their unique look and feel in the cabin, with a few exceptions.
Also, you are all overlooking the voice interface on the lexus, which is excellent. Most of the obscure controls are accessible through the voice controls, and it really makes things easier. I think voice control is really the future of all controls that don't need real-time access. Seat heaters and coolers, temperature controls, wiper intermittancy, real washer/wiper, panoramic camera settings, all that **** should be voice commands. The voice commands should be made flexible and intelligent enough to figure out what you want or to clarify your request when you ask.
I like clean design. Plus they all wear out differently, lets say if you use one more than the other. you all know you have finger oil / dark spots on your most frequently used buttons. if anything else buttons are unsightly.
the less buttons (within reason) the better. like when apple deletes stuff as designs get more modern with time.
I guess if you like buttons, you can check out the old Pontiacs. i guess they were cool in the day, but manufacturers are trending towards leaner cleaner designs. They see the big screens and go "yeah we should do that too!"
well in fact, I was a Pontiac fan for many years - 80s into 2001 which was my last one - a Grand Prix which was one of the best cars I ever owned.
