Soft brakes
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Driver School Candidate
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 21
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From: WI
Soft brakes
I bled the brakes on my 94 es300, yet the brakes are still soft. However I'm not losing any fluid from the reservoir or any of the lines. I have almost brand new pads on all corners as well. Am I missing something? What could be causing the problem?
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,027
Likes: 4,321
From: Alberta
Keys to proper brake pedal feel
- Working calipers (obv)
- Slide pins in good condition and lubricated
- Clean brake hardware properly seated in caliper bracket (no build up behind the hardware especially)
- Properly bled system - hose on bleeder in jar of clean fluid - valve open brake pedal to floor - valve closed pedal released
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,693
Likes: 1,102
From: Michigan
Hello,
What caused the brakes to become soft in the first place?
One method to bleed the brakes with ABS is to use a Techstream software, but it wasn't available for that car, so the other way is to take the ABS Solenoid relay out to cause a fault code in the system, which makes it function as if there is no ABS in the car.
Other method I learned was to crack the bleeder screw farthest from the ABS unit and just leave it sitting for a while, then repeat it to all the other sides; as the gravity pushes the fluid down, it will also get all the remaining bubbles out; as an added bonus, it was quite satisfying to watch air bubbles escape after I had to leave the car with a broken bleeder screw overnight. Granted, it may take up to a few hours, but you only need to make sure you have enough fluid, you don't have to be near the car the whole time.
As LeX2K mentioned, if none of the methods would work out, then you have bad Master Cylinder. One way to check it is to try and pump the brakes quite a few times to see if they will get any firmer, if not, then you either have way too much air in the system, or the Master Cylinder is indeed bad. For a 3rd-gen it was pretty common, since Toyota decided that the rubber boot between the cylinder and the vacuum booster that was used on 2nd-gen is too expensive, so the dirt was getting in. The Part Number for a rebuild kit is 04493-33060, and for a rubber boot I referred to earlier is 47265-20050, I installed it on my car when I was rebuilding my cylinder, no issues so far.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
What caused the brakes to become soft in the first place?
One method to bleed the brakes with ABS is to use a Techstream software, but it wasn't available for that car, so the other way is to take the ABS Solenoid relay out to cause a fault code in the system, which makes it function as if there is no ABS in the car.
Other method I learned was to crack the bleeder screw farthest from the ABS unit and just leave it sitting for a while, then repeat it to all the other sides; as the gravity pushes the fluid down, it will also get all the remaining bubbles out; as an added bonus, it was quite satisfying to watch air bubbles escape after I had to leave the car with a broken bleeder screw overnight. Granted, it may take up to a few hours, but you only need to make sure you have enough fluid, you don't have to be near the car the whole time.
As LeX2K mentioned, if none of the methods would work out, then you have bad Master Cylinder. One way to check it is to try and pump the brakes quite a few times to see if they will get any firmer, if not, then you either have way too much air in the system, or the Master Cylinder is indeed bad. For a 3rd-gen it was pretty common, since Toyota decided that the rubber boot between the cylinder and the vacuum booster that was used on 2nd-gen is too expensive, so the dirt was getting in. The Part Number for a rebuild kit is 04493-33060, and for a rubber boot I referred to earlier is 47265-20050, I installed it on my car when I was rebuilding my cylinder, no issues so far.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
Last edited by Arsenii; Nov 12, 2021 at 06:05 PM.
Driver
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 79
Likes: 6
From: MI
If air trapped in the master cylinder, it does not matter how many times you bleed and the pedal still soft. It happened to me. I replaced the master cylinder after desperation and brake firm. After I disassembled the cylinder, I found one bad oring.
Driver
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 56
Likes: 8
From: sc
Hello,
What caused the brakes to become soft in the first place?
One method to bleed the brakes with ABS is to use a Techstream software, but it wasn't available for that car, so the other way is to take the ABS Solenoid relay out to cause a fault code in the system, which makes it function as if there is no ABS in the car.
Other method I learned was to crack the bleeder screw farthest from the ABS unit and just leave it sitting for a while, then repeat it to all the other sides; as the gravity pushes the fluid down, it will also get all the remaining bubbles out; as an added bonus, it was quite satisfying to watch air bubbles escape after I had to leave the car with a broken bleeder screw overnight. Granted, it may take up to a few hours, but you only need to make sure you have enough fluid, you don't have to be near the car the whole time.
As LeX2K mentioned, if none of the methods would work out, then you have bad Master Cylinder. One way to check it is to try and pump the brakes quite a few times to see if they will get any firmer, if not, then you either have way too much air in the system, or the Master Cylinder is indeed bad. For a 3rd-gen it was pretty common, since Toyota decided that the rubber boot between the cylinder and the vacuum booster that was used on 2nd-gen is too expensive, so the dirt was getting in. The Part Number for a rebuild kit is 04493-33060, and for a rubber boot I referred to earlier is 47265-20050, I installed it on my car when I was rebuilding my cylinder, no issues so far.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
What caused the brakes to become soft in the first place?
One method to bleed the brakes with ABS is to use a Techstream software, but it wasn't available for that car, so the other way is to take the ABS Solenoid relay out to cause a fault code in the system, which makes it function as if there is no ABS in the car.
Other method I learned was to crack the bleeder screw farthest from the ABS unit and just leave it sitting for a while, then repeat it to all the other sides; as the gravity pushes the fluid down, it will also get all the remaining bubbles out; as an added bonus, it was quite satisfying to watch air bubbles escape after I had to leave the car with a broken bleeder screw overnight. Granted, it may take up to a few hours, but you only need to make sure you have enough fluid, you don't have to be near the car the whole time.
As LeX2K mentioned, if none of the methods would work out, then you have bad Master Cylinder. One way to check it is to try and pump the brakes quite a few times to see if they will get any firmer, if not, then you either have way too much air in the system, or the Master Cylinder is indeed bad. For a 3rd-gen it was pretty common, since Toyota decided that the rubber boot between the cylinder and the vacuum booster that was used on 2nd-gen is too expensive, so the dirt was getting in. The Part Number for a rebuild kit is 04493-33060, and for a rubber boot I referred to earlier is 47265-20050, I installed it on my car when I was rebuilding my cylinder, no issues so far.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
Can I drive the car like this... I do not need ABS 99.999 % of the time.... I will get this sorted a bit later. I do not think the MC is bad ....
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,693
Likes: 1,102
From: Michigan
Thanks! 
What's the problem you are experiencing?
The unfortunate truth of the matter is that ABS is like airbags, you never know when you might need it..
It's not that the ABS can make a pedal feel soft, the only reason to go through the procedure described above and take the ABS relay out is to manually bleed the system if you don't have Techstream software, there is no reason to drive without ABS.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The unfortunate truth of the matter is that ABS is like airbags, you never know when you might need it..
It's not that the ABS can make a pedal feel soft, the only reason to go through the procedure described above and take the ABS relay out is to manually bleed the system if you don't have Techstream software, there is no reason to drive without ABS.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
Driver
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 56
Likes: 8
From: sc
Thanks!
What's the problem you are experiencing?
The unfortunate truth of the matter is that ABS is like airbags, you never know when you might need it..
It's not that the ABS can make a pedal feel soft, the only reason to go through the procedure described above and take the ABS relay out is to manually bleed the system if you don't have Techstream software, there is no reason to drive without ABS.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
What's the problem you are experiencing?
The unfortunate truth of the matter is that ABS is like airbags, you never know when you might need it..
It's not that the ABS can make a pedal feel soft, the only reason to go through the procedure described above and take the ABS relay out is to manually bleed the system if you don't have Techstream software, there is no reason to drive without ABS.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
I was just looking for the ABS relay..
Looks like it should be on passenger side - front near the ABS module..
https://parts.autonationtoyotagulffr...abs-components
The above linked parts show it - 4 , but do I just unplug one or both of the wiring harness going into the bottom of the "relay"
I did my bleeding without this disconnected
I started to bleed the brakes months ago and the fact the car did not run put a damper on my enthusiasm
I did vac out most of the old fluid from the reservoir and refilled it with Dot 3 I do not think I went too low
Once the car was running again, I noticed the brakes are not hard and go down too close to the floor
If I pump them they will build back up and hold but seem to loose that in a short distance of driving
IF I disconnect the battery - will that serve the same as disconnecting the relay Then bleed again?? Thanks for all your help !!!!!!!!!!
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Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,693
Likes: 1,102
From: Michigan
The method of disconnecting the ABS is only suitable if the system was completely drained, like if you were to replace the Master Cylinder for example. By simply removing the fluid from the reservoir with a syringe, you will likely never get that low.
The idea is to trigger a fault in the ABS system, so simply disconnecting the battery won't work. The relay in this car is not of a conventional type, it is housed together with the Traction Relay, and is indeed located somewhere behind the Passenger Side headlight.
The fact that the pressure does build up and doesn't leak out when you pump and hold the brakes is a very good sign, it means that the Master Cylinder is likely intact and working as intended, so my guess is that you simply have some air trapped in one of the lines.
The best method to bleed the brakes would be to have one person in the car to press on the brakes, and another person to crack each bleeder screw. First a person steps on the brakes and holds the pedal, then you crack the screw, wait a second, and close it back up, and only then release the brakes. Do it a number of times to each caliper, starting with the one farthest from the ABS module, Rear Left in this case, and gradually moving up to Front Right wheel by the end.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
The idea is to trigger a fault in the ABS system, so simply disconnecting the battery won't work. The relay in this car is not of a conventional type, it is housed together with the Traction Relay, and is indeed located somewhere behind the Passenger Side headlight.
The fact that the pressure does build up and doesn't leak out when you pump and hold the brakes is a very good sign, it means that the Master Cylinder is likely intact and working as intended, so my guess is that you simply have some air trapped in one of the lines.
The best method to bleed the brakes would be to have one person in the car to press on the brakes, and another person to crack each bleeder screw. First a person steps on the brakes and holds the pedal, then you crack the screw, wait a second, and close it back up, and only then release the brakes. Do it a number of times to each caliper, starting with the one farthest from the ABS module, Rear Left in this case, and gradually moving up to Front Right wheel by the end.
Hope this helps and best of luck!
Driver
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 56
Likes: 8
From: sc
Back at the Circle "J" ranch,,, I have been courting my brakes now for awhile.. I have run new fluid thru the entire system but the brakes are still not right..
I did buy the one-way bleeder screws because I was not sure when Arsenii was going to come down.(JK) Also because a friend raved about how easy it was to use those several years ago.
Today I went after the driver's side front to put in the new bleed screw and wanted to check other things. I took the caliper off, not disconnecting the brake fluid line, but enough to get to the pads and such. I cleaned up the pads and spacers and tried to push the pistons back into the caliper - STUCK. I cleaned around the seals and had to use a piece of wood and a linear impact device to unstick them. Bled out the caliper. All good. Took a test drive and the brakes are still not right. The driver's side front locked up on some pine needles at a stop sign. When I got back I checked the temperature of all the rotors and """Ω#^&Ω^*&%^%^""
The driver's front was 470° rear was 80° The passenger side front was 80° and rear 278° The ones working are the diagonal DF and PR I have no idea how to draw a pic here. I will go after the driver's rear next.
I did buy the one-way bleeder screws because I was not sure when Arsenii was going to come down.(JK) Also because a friend raved about how easy it was to use those several years ago.
Today I went after the driver's side front to put in the new bleed screw and wanted to check other things. I took the caliper off, not disconnecting the brake fluid line, but enough to get to the pads and such. I cleaned up the pads and spacers and tried to push the pistons back into the caliper - STUCK. I cleaned around the seals and had to use a piece of wood and a linear impact device to unstick them. Bled out the caliper. All good. Took a test drive and the brakes are still not right. The driver's side front locked up on some pine needles at a stop sign. When I got back I checked the temperature of all the rotors and """Ω#^&Ω^*&%^%^""
The driver's front was 470° rear was 80° The passenger side front was 80° and rear 278° The ones working are the diagonal DF and PR I have no idea how to draw a pic here. I will go after the driver's rear next.
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 3,693
Likes: 1,102
From: Michigan
Oh wow, sounds like you are up for some new calipers, that's not really the way to leave those.. It's weird though that you would have those issues with such low mileage, maybe it's because the old fluid was saturated with water that it likes to absorb.
If it is not your daily driver, you can try taking one of the seized calipers apart before ordering any new parts by squeezing the piston out with the brake pedal, just be careful not to get hit by it and not to spill the brake fluid everywhere. If there is no rust or scoring on either the piston or the caliper walls, you should be good to simply get an OEM rebuild kit and rebuild all the calipers. In my case I also snapped the bleeder screw ... twice, so I had no choice but to replace the caliper.
Rebuild kits are sold per axle, Part Number for the front is 04479-50080, and for the back is 04479-20120. If you don't want to deal with it, you can get rebuilt calipers at RockAuto, but they won't be just as long lasting as OEM.
I any case, look at it from the bright side, just imagine the kind of performance boost you will get when half of your car will stop dragging you back, lots of people are willing to crawl out of their skin to get that new feeling for their cars..
Hope this helps and best of luck!
If it is not your daily driver, you can try taking one of the seized calipers apart before ordering any new parts by squeezing the piston out with the brake pedal, just be careful not to get hit by it and not to spill the brake fluid everywhere. If there is no rust or scoring on either the piston or the caliper walls, you should be good to simply get an OEM rebuild kit and rebuild all the calipers. In my case I also snapped the bleeder screw ... twice, so I had no choice but to replace the caliper.
Rebuild kits are sold per axle, Part Number for the front is 04479-50080, and for the back is 04479-20120. If you don't want to deal with it, you can get rebuilt calipers at RockAuto, but they won't be just as long lasting as OEM.
I any case, look at it from the bright side, just imagine the kind of performance boost you will get when half of your car will stop dragging you back, lots of people are willing to crawl out of their skin to get that new feeling for their cars..
Hope this helps and best of luck!
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