No start
Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4
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From: California
No start
Hi gentlemen,
My friend came with his 2002 ES300 that would not crank. He has no context of what happened immediately before the car refused to start.
Here is what i found:
Coolant expansion tank was bone dry.
On starting, relays click and hum present (fuel pump?), but starter does not turn.
Starter and solenoid work when extracted from engine.
Brand new battery installed.
No blown fuses, all relays work.
When cranking, starter fuse and relay both get 12V (for relay, 12V present on its coil and on its switch terminal).
When cranking, there is no voltage at the starter solenoid or at the starter terminal.
Wouldn't be the ignition switch since there is voltage at the starter fuse/relay. Engine not seized (as far as i can tell, so far) since starter isnt even trying to turn it over. I am out of ideas, so came here to consult with you guys. If anyone catches an error in my diagnostic logic above, or has any further testing ideas or has run into this sort of problem, please share; any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance and happy holidays!
My friend came with his 2002 ES300 that would not crank. He has no context of what happened immediately before the car refused to start.
Here is what i found:
Coolant expansion tank was bone dry.
On starting, relays click and hum present (fuel pump?), but starter does not turn.
Starter and solenoid work when extracted from engine.
Brand new battery installed.
No blown fuses, all relays work.
When cranking, starter fuse and relay both get 12V (for relay, 12V present on its coil and on its switch terminal).
When cranking, there is no voltage at the starter solenoid or at the starter terminal.
Wouldn't be the ignition switch since there is voltage at the starter fuse/relay. Engine not seized (as far as i can tell, so far) since starter isnt even trying to turn it over. I am out of ideas, so came here to consult with you guys. If anyone catches an error in my diagnostic logic above, or has any further testing ideas or has run into this sort of problem, please share; any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance and happy holidays!
Last edited by Nonnname; Nov 26, 2016 at 07:23 AM.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,841
Likes: 48
From: Montreal, Canada
Try this first. Hit the starter with the end of a broom stick, while someone else tries to crank the engine.
Hit it a few times relatively hard, but not hard enough that you damage the starter.
Hit it a few times relatively hard, but not hard enough that you damage the starter.
Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: California
PFB,
Thanks for the suggestion with the broom, will try as soon as the rain stops. Are you thinking the starter shaft is stuck in?
Htony,
I did not check the radiator coolant level, and probably should have. I will post back as soon as the rain is over. I actually took out the alternator/solenoid and hooked it up to the battery. I was able to trigger the solenoid closed and the starter popped out and spun properly, so I ruled out that the problem is in either. Both solenoid and starter do have low resistances (few ohm) across their windings. How do i check grounding? Case of sol./starter to negative of battery?
Could i give the solenoid a 12V signal from the battery directly while someone is cranking, or will this damage something? I am concerned that the more sensitive electronics might not like that... Thank you both for your input. I will be back with more info.
Thanks for the suggestion with the broom, will try as soon as the rain stops. Are you thinking the starter shaft is stuck in?
Htony,
I did not check the radiator coolant level, and probably should have. I will post back as soon as the rain is over. I actually took out the alternator/solenoid and hooked it up to the battery. I was able to trigger the solenoid closed and the starter popped out and spun properly, so I ruled out that the problem is in either. Both solenoid and starter do have low resistances (few ohm) across their windings. How do i check grounding? Case of sol./starter to negative of battery?
Could i give the solenoid a 12V signal from the battery directly while someone is cranking, or will this damage something? I am concerned that the more sensitive electronics might not like that... Thank you both for your input. I will be back with more info.
Last edited by Nonnname; Nov 26, 2016 at 10:38 AM.
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Also try connecting an OBD2 scan tool to check if the ECM is turning on and able to communicate. A bad computer will prevent the engine from starting. If the computer is good, it maybe a loose and/or corroded computer ground.
Also make sure all your wires are in tact between the battery and the starter. Check for continuity/resistance. Sounds like there is an electrical break.
Also make sure all your wires are in tact between the battery and the starter. Check for continuity/resistance. Sounds like there is an electrical break.
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Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: California
Thank you for all the responses!
I finally got to it, so i tried your suggestions:
Tried the broomstick method, and no results.
Checked the radiator, plenty of coolant there.
Yes, solenoid closed and starter shaft popped out and started spinning (while off the engine).
Security light is not on.
Battery terminals are tight.
OBDII dongle does see the ECU.
I tried giving the starter solenoid 12V directly from the battery while also turning the key (starter in place on engine). Got a spark on contact, so there is continuity (right?), but starter did not sound like it even tried turning. Thing is, there is no dedicated ground terminal anywhere on the starter/solenoid assembly, so the case itself must be grounded. So if there is continuity for the solenoid (which sits on the starter), then both the starter and the solenoid should be seeing ground. Had I not tested the starter before, I'd say that the starter went bad. Now I'm clueless.
I will try tracing the ground or maybe running a dedicated ground line to starter as soon as I can. In the meantime, let me know if this new info sheds new light on anything. Thanks in advance!
I finally got to it, so i tried your suggestions:
Tried the broomstick method, and no results.
Checked the radiator, plenty of coolant there.
Yes, solenoid closed and starter shaft popped out and started spinning (while off the engine).
Security light is not on.
Battery terminals are tight.
OBDII dongle does see the ECU.
I tried giving the starter solenoid 12V directly from the battery while also turning the key (starter in place on engine). Got a spark on contact, so there is continuity (right?), but starter did not sound like it even tried turning. Thing is, there is no dedicated ground terminal anywhere on the starter/solenoid assembly, so the case itself must be grounded. So if there is continuity for the solenoid (which sits on the starter), then both the starter and the solenoid should be seeing ground. Had I not tested the starter before, I'd say that the starter went bad. Now I'm clueless.
I will try tracing the ground or maybe running a dedicated ground line to starter as soon as I can. In the meantime, let me know if this new info sheds new light on anything. Thanks in advance!
Csn you spin the engine by the crank bolt? You may have some mechanical issues preventing the starter gear from turning the flex plate.
It's also possible the timing belt snapped and locked up the motor.
It's also possible the timing belt snapped and locked up the motor.
Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: California
I am not sure where the crank bolt is, but assume its somewhere by the belt? If you could point me to it, it might be useful to turn it by hand and at least know if it seized or not. A snapped belt would make sense. I will be digging into the car this weekend and will check the belts. Appreciate the idea!
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 584
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From: CA
STARTER RELAY ASSEMBLY
Inspect the relay continuity.
(1) Using an ohmmeter, check that there is continuity
between terminals 1 and 2.
If there is no continuity, replace the relay.
(2) Check that there is no continuity between terminals
3 and 5.
If there is continuity, replace the relay.
Inspect the relay operation.
(1) Apply battery positive voltage across terminals 1
and 2.
(2) Using an ohmmeter, check that there is continuity
between terminals 3 and 5.
If there is no continuity, replace the relay.
Inspect the relay continuity.
(1) Using an ohmmeter, check that there is continuity
between terminals 1 and 2.
If there is no continuity, replace the relay.
(2) Check that there is no continuity between terminals
3 and 5.
If there is continuity, replace the relay.
Inspect the relay operation.
(1) Apply battery positive voltage across terminals 1
and 2.
(2) Using an ohmmeter, check that there is continuity
between terminals 3 and 5.
If there is no continuity, replace the relay.
Last edited by fortitude; Dec 3, 2016 at 08:09 AM.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 584
Likes: 106
From: CA
Originally Posted by Nonnname
I am not sure where the crank bolt is, but assume its somewhere by the belt? If you could point me to it, it might be useful to turn it by hand and at least know if it seized or not. A snapped belt would make sense. I will be digging into the car this weekend and will check the belts. Appreciate the idea!
Having said, try all the simple stuff first like relays, before going after something more complex. How come your friend never gave you any details about what happened?
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