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It's interesting you brought this up. I'm not sure about V8 but non Genesis brand is for sure a thing around here. Many do. Most houses have one to four luxury brands including (expensive) Tesla and Italians/British. I don't see any Genesis here. In my circle, I don't have any friend with a Genesis either. Even the one Korean close friend who always highly speaks about his Korean products. He has one Hyundai and a BMW even he highly speaks of Genesis too. Lol. Of course this has no direct relation to this i7 and already existed before it came out. Even when we argue (subjectively) about this car, there are other choices that people tend to pick before getting a Genesis. Or maybe these people are not enthusiastic enough.
Yep. I don't think there is even one in my neighborhood but we have 15+ Porsches and 4 current V12 BMWs/S-classes
Don't even start lol! You don't want to play that games with Hyundai not only having far more issues but once the recalls are done they got re-recalled for STILL catching on fire.
Genesis's weakness has always been its near non-existent dealer network limiting its inventory. Doesn't mean they aren't sought after.
Originally Posted by Motorola
Just like how they paid over 20% MSRP for the GV80 and GV70 right? I don't see a single BMW on that list unless you count a Mini Cooper.
And this statement is supposed to be objective? How do you know they are sought after? Did you ask non Genesis owners if they bought those cars because they couldn't get a Genesis? We now use mark up as a measure? I remember seeing a post on media about LX is priced higher than G wagon in this one region. The LX must be a better SUV. Lol.
Don't even start lol! You don't want to play that games with Hyundai not only having far more issues but once the recalls are done they got re-recalled for STILL catching on fire.
It's a 3rd rate brand.
You know that first link I posted is the third re-recall for the same issue right? lol
It's a joke to think BMW is even comparable to Genesis when it comes to reliability. Recall games have little bearing on the results.
Originally Posted by 1111GS
And this statement is supposed to be objective? How do you know they are sought after? Did you ask non Genesis owners if they bought those cars because they couldn't get a Genesis? We now use mark up as a measure? I remember seeing a post on media about LX is priced higher than G wagon in this one region. The LX must be a better SUV. Lol.
LOL, it is objective whether you like it or not. Nationwide, the demand for GV80's and GV70's exceeds their supply. That's what markups measure, and why it's called "MSRP."
And if the LX has a bigger markup than the G-Wagen, it means the exact same thing. That more people want the LX than the supply available. It's not even on this chart though, so a rather irrelevant hypothetical.
Last edited by Motorola; Nov 12, 2022 at 10:32 AM.
And if the LX has a bigger markup than the G-Wagen, it means the exact same thing. That more people want the LX than the supply available. It's not even on this chart though, so a rather irrelevant hypothetical.
With this reasoning and your posted chart, we can conclude RX is a better/hotter car than GV80? Lol.
Originally Posted by Motorola
it is objective whether you like it or not. Nationwide, the demand for GV80's and GV70's exceeds their supply. That's what markups measure, and why it's called "MSRP."
Joke aside, let's look at some numbers. According to https://carfigures.com/, Genesis sold 14,851 GV70 and 14,054GV80 from Jan to Oct 2022. These numbers are about how many GLE were sold in Q3. Guess how many X5 were sold? 21,078 in Q3. I guess these numbers don't have any value? Or because Genesis can not build enough to keep up with the demands? Lol.
With this reasoning and your posted chart, we can conclude RX is a better/hotter car than GV80? Lol.
The RX V6 hybrid and three-row are going out of production, so it's not surprising people are scooping whatever is left of them as they depart and production has ceased. Completely different circumstances from the Genesis vehicles on the chart.
Joke aside, let's look at some numbers. According to https://carfigures.com/, Genesis sold 14,851 GV70 and 14,054GV80 from Jan to Oct 2022. These numbers are about how many GLE were sold in Q3. Guess how many X5 were sold? 21,078 in Q3. I guess these numbers don't have any value? Or because Genesis can not build enough to keep up with the demands? Lol.
Is it that hard to understand? lol
Genesis can't make enough supply, so what supply they have gets marked up above MSRP to match the demand. If the demand wasn't there, tell me, why are they all marked up?
This isn't some trick, this is basic economics. But don't listen to me, here is straight from the article the study was from:
“Dealers have responded to market conditions by pricing cars above MSRP making a higher profit on specific models to help offset lower sales volumes from restricted new car production,” said iSeeCars Executive Analyst Karl Brauer. “In today’s market, consumers are willing to pay well-above sticker price for new cars because inventory is so scarce and because they know that new car pricing is not expected to improve until 2023 at the earliest.”
Last edited by Motorola; Nov 12, 2022 at 11:26 AM.
There's a big difference between "Genesis doesn't have the brand cache of BMW" and "Genesis is unpopular/undesirable."
Who said the latter?
Comparing like for like, 6-cylinder to 6-cylinder, there's little if anything the BMW has that the Genesis doesn't beyond the badge.
There are all manner of chassis control systems and features that you can get on the 7 you can't on the G90, plus watch the reviews, Genesis still doesnt have the powertrain or suspension sophistication of the germans, I guarantee the I6 in the 740 will be smoother than the TTV6 in the G90 and the car will ride and drive with more polish.
But what you miss is this car is not about the gas engines, they are here to tide it over until its fully EV. This car is all about the EV powertrain and thats the future. Nothing about the G90 is the future, its a car designed for another era. THATS what is so much more advanced about this new 7 series.
At $10K+ markup, I'm not sure that a GV80 or GV70 would be cheaper than its German counterpart, but that's beside the point.
They are, and it isn't beside the point. If the GV80 and GV70 were the same price as a X5 or X3, they would not sell, and certainly not at a markup. Genesis and Hyundai are all about value, take the value away and there is nothing there to sell them over the established competitors.
The point is that the demand for these vehicles far exceeds their supply, hence why they have some of the biggest markups in the entire industry. Obviously Genesis isn't anywhere near BMW or Mercedes or even Lexus in brand prestige. But that doesn't make it an undesirable brand as some would like to assert.
The demand for ALL vehicles far exceeds their supply. There are markups on Corollas.
Issue is when someone points out that brand disparity you take that to mean that the brand has no appeal and thats not the case.
The RX V6 hybrid and three-row are going out of production, so it's not surprising people are scooping whatever is left of them as they depart and production has ceased. Completely different circumstances from the Genesis vehicles on the chart.
Is it that hard to understand? lol
Genesis can't make enough supply, so what supply they have gets marked up above MSRP to match the demand. If the demand wasn't there, tell me, why are they all marked up?
This isn't some trick, this is basic economics. But don't listen to me, here is straight from the article the study was from:
I think I've been off topic too far. I will leave now and register for an economic 101 and let other talk about i7. I love those comments from so called analysts.
I think I've been off topic too far. I will leave now and register for an economic 101 and let other talk about i7. I love those comments from so called analysts.
Yeah, this discussion has pretty much gone off the rails. Meanwhile the i7 will launch and its fate will be in the hands of actual buyers and lessees. On the BMW forum that I look at initial reactions have been mixed to say the least.
Most people in the general population have no idea what Genesis is.
There are all manner of chassis control systems and features that you can get on the 7 you can't on the G90, plus watch the reviews, Genesis still doesnt have the powertrain or suspension sophistication of the germans, I guarantee the I6 in the 740 will be smoother than the TTV6 in the G90 and the car will ride and drive with more polish.
We'll have to wait until comparison are out for that to be the case, but from existing reviews, the G90 isn't any inferior to the standard S-Class when it comes to ride sophistication. Add to the fact that the 6-cylinder 7 is missing one of the most important features, AWD, is alone enough to make it no match for the G90 in most parts of the country.
The 7 will probably handle better than either the S-Class or G90, but as the LS500 demonstrated, that's about the least important part of this segment.
But what you miss is this car is not about the gas engines, they are here to tide it over until its fully EV. This car is all about the EV powertrain and thats the future. Nothing about the G90 is the future, its a car designed for another era. THATS what is so much more advanced about this new 7 series.
The 7 is on an ICE-converted platform, which I recall you and several others heckled the crap out of the Genesis G80 EV for lol.
Besides that, the "future" presented in the 7 Series is mostly cosmetic, i.e. no physical buttons. What actual futuristic "features" does it have beyond the EV variant that the G90 doesn't have? The big screen in the back? lol
The demand for ALL vehicles far exceeds their supply.
Nope, read the chart again. The GV70 and GV80 are two of the most heavily marked up vehicles in the entire country. At $10K+ their current MSRP, they basically cost the same if not a bit more than their German counterparts. And this isn't just dealers marking them up for attention, the markup is for vehicles that were actually sold.
They are, and it isn't beside the point. If the GV80 and GV70 were the same price as a X5 or X3, they would not sell, and certainly not at a markup. Genesis and Hyundai are all about value, take the value away and there is nothing there to sell them over the established competitors.
That's not true at all, the Palisade and Telluride you mentioned before were usually marked up well beyond their MSRP even before the pandemic. People still bought them, not because they were a "value" to the likes of the Highlander or Explorer, but because they punched above their weight into the realms of the Lexus RX. That's why they could tolerate those markups.
To say that people only buy the GV70 and 80 for their "value" when they are currently two of the most heavily marked up cars in the entire nation is just totally unrealistic lol.
Last edited by Motorola; Nov 12, 2022 at 12:13 PM.
Yeah, and my words are accurate. Just because people don't know what a Genesis is doesn't mean that there isn't demand. Clearly there is demand and they are making excellent products, but most people still don't know what a Genesis is. I bought my LS400 at the height of Lexus' impact on the market, and many people didnt know what a Lexus was.
We'll have to wait until comparison are out for that to be the case, but from existing reviews, the G90 isn't any inferior to the standard S-Class when it comes to ride sophistication. Add to the fact that the 6-cylinder 7 is missing one of the most important features, AWD, is alone enough to make it no match for the G90 in most parts of the country.
We have read different reviews, clearly. I have read and watched multiple reviews that says the G90 lacks the ride sophistication of the S Class.
BMW clearly anticipates that most buyers will get the V8 or the EV, and the 6 cyl won't be the best seller, hence why they didnt bother developing X Drive for the 6 cyl. At the end of the day, they will sell WAY more 7 Series in the US than they will G90s, thats a foregone conclusion.
The ONLY reason I would choose a G90 over another S Class or a 7 Series or an A8 is a desire to save money. I think you will find the vast, vast majority of buyers will agree. If cost is no object, I wouldn't even test drive a G90. Despite the value, extremely few people who shop S Classes and 7 Series will. Why would I want to buy a car that tries to prove its "as good" as what I already have? Only reason is to save money, otherwise I will buy what is indisputably the best.
The 7 will probably handle better than either the S-Class or G90, but as the LS500 demonstrated, that's about the least important part of this segment.
Its important if it doesn't impact ride quality overly. I can tell you I appreciate the better handling of my S560 from my LS460L every day.
The 7 is on an ICE-converted platform, which I recall you and several others heckled the crap out of the Genesis G80 EV for lol.
Wasn't me, I find the EV G80 extremely compelling. i would much rather have a car like that or like this than a true EV with a goofy shape like an EQS or EQE. This 7 was designed to be an EV from the get go, it was just also designed to have an ICE option, thats why space etc is not changed between the gas and EV versions like it is in the G80.
Besides that, the "future" presented in the 7 Series is mostly cosmetic, i.e. no physical buttons. What actual futuristic "features" does it have beyond the EV variant that the G90 doesn't have? The big screen in the back? lol
You're completely ignoring the EV powertrain and vehicle design, thats the future. Thats the whole ball game right there. There is no EV G90, and the EV G80 and other models are only sold in like 6 states. This is the first traditional flagship in the industry with an EV option, and its arguably the most compelling option in the lineup...
Nope, read the chart again. The GV70 and GV80 are two of the most heavily marked up vehicles in the entire country. At $10K+ their current MSRP, they basically cost the same if not a bit more than their German counterparts. And this isn't just dealers marking them up for attention, the markup is for vehicles that were actually sold.
You aren't comparing them to BMWs or Mercedes optioned similarly. A fully loaded GLE for instance is $95,000. Thats what compares to a $75,000 GV80. You are also ignoring the fact that the German cars are also selling at a markup.
Nobody will pay the same cost as a BMW or Mercedes for a Genesis.
That's not true at all, the Palisade and Telluride you mentioned before were usually marked up well beyond their MSRP even before the pandemic. People still bought them, not because they were a "value" to the likes of the Highlander or Explorer, but because they punched above their weight into the realms of the Lexus RX. That's why they could tolerate those markups.
Even with those markups they were still a great value, thats the whole point. A fully loaded Calligraphy Palisade was $45,000...thats CHEAP for what the vehicle is, you're right it punches above. If the MSRP were $65,000, nobody would have bought them because the value would be gone.
VALUE is central to the selling proposition of Hyundai, Kia and Genesis, full stop.
To say that people only buy the GV70 and 80 for their "value" when they are currently two of the most heavily marked up cars in the entire nation is just totally unrealistic lol.
It isnt when even after they are marked up they are still a great value.
Like it or not, these are "off brand" cars. Nobody will pay the same as a BMW or Mercedes for a Genesis, nor will they pay the same as a Toyota for a Hyundai. Its the same reason why VIZIO can't sell a TV the same price as a Samsung, LG or Sony. It may be just as good or better, but it has to be cheaper because their main selling proposition is value.
I have nothing against Genesis, I may very well test and get a G90, but to say that they have parity with the Germans is just ridiculous. They have a LONG way to go before they get there, if they ever really can.
Steve, if we keep going, all I'm going to do is keep pointing how your numbers are mostly wrong (i.e. a Palisade Caligraphy is around $55K, not $45K, and you would struggle to take GLE450 past $90K), and reasserting how a lot of your assumptions don't match up with these numbers. But we are getting way off topic, and I have no desire to write another wall of text and numbers to repeat most of what I've already said.
