5K+ Minimum over list for new vehicles.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Likes: 20
From: Ohio
I actually have worked in the industry...and write and negotiate contracts for a living. Contracts are contracts, and unless there is a specific unit that is promised by a certain time, there is no way to enforce a contract on a specific car. Its like writing a contract to buy or build a house without an address and no timeline for completion. There's no way for you as the customer to hold the dealer's feet to the fire and say that specific car that came in or is coming in is the one that was promised to you in the contract...unless its specified by VIN. The dealer can kick you down the line and sell that car to someone else for a $10k markup and keep doing that until the market gets to where he wants to deliver it to you. If they don't deliver it, they can refund your deposit and they're out.
As for "your plane", if they deliver under the terms of the contract then you're in default if you don't perform. Absent a VIN, there is no way for you as the buyer to say they are not performing under the contract...hence you can't do anything. If a car that fits what you ordered comes in and they want to proceed as agreed and you don't...then you're in default. Might not be fair but it is what it is.
As was said before...this happens all the time. If you have owned and operated new car dealerships for 40 years, you know that.
As for "your plane", if they deliver under the terms of the contract then you're in default if you don't perform. Absent a VIN, there is no way for you as the buyer to say they are not performing under the contract...hence you can't do anything. If a car that fits what you ordered comes in and they want to proceed as agreed and you don't...then you're in default. Might not be fair but it is what it is.
As was said before...this happens all the time. If you have owned and operated new car dealerships for 40 years, you know that.
I really couldn't care about your absolute nonsense but do strenuously object to know-it-alls on forums who refuse to listen to any other point of view and insist on spreading their own form of misinformation about an industry they obviously know nothing about.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
Those order numbers do not coincide to a specific vehicle. The only number that does which cannot be altered is a VIN.
Go talk to an attorney and ask them which one of us is right. You cannot have a contract that binds both parties to a specific physical item unless that one specific physical item is identified in a concrete and expressed manner.
And what you describe me as is exactly what you are. You claim to have all this experience which is quite possibly all BS.
Go talk to an attorney and ask them which one of us is right. You cannot have a contract that binds both parties to a specific physical item unless that one specific physical item is identified in a concrete and expressed manner.
And what you describe me as is exactly what you are. You claim to have all this experience which is quite possibly all BS.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Likes: 20
From: Ohio
Just so you know, there is actually a current Car and Driver article on this subject explaining to people to get their pricing and purchase agreements in writing to avoid these problems. But, I'm going to guess they didn't consult with you before publishing and their statements are also all wrong!
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 11,065
Likes: 105
From: Southeastern PA
I actually have worked in the industry...and write and negotiate contracts for a living. Contracts are contracts, and unless there is a specific unit that is promised by a certain time, there is no way to enforce a contract on a specific car. Its like writing a contract to buy or build a house without an address and no timeline for completion. There's no way for you as the customer to hold the dealer's feet to the fire and say that specific car that came in or is coming in is the one that was promised to you in the contract...unless its specified by VIN. The dealer can kick you down the line and sell that car to someone else for a $10k markup and keep doing that until the market gets to where he wants to deliver it to you. If they don't deliver it, they can refund your deposit and they're out.
As for "your plane", if they deliver under the terms of the contract then you're in default if you don't perform. Absent a VIN, there is no way for you as the buyer to say they are not performing under the contract...hence you can't do anything. If a car that fits what you ordered comes in and they want to proceed as agreed and you don't...then you're in default. Might not be fair but it is what it is.
As was said before...this happens all the time. If you have owned and operated new car dealerships for 40 years, you know that.
As for "your plane", if they deliver under the terms of the contract then you're in default if you don't perform. Absent a VIN, there is no way for you as the buyer to say they are not performing under the contract...hence you can't do anything. If a car that fits what you ordered comes in and they want to proceed as agreed and you don't...then you're in default. Might not be fair but it is what it is.
As was said before...this happens all the time. If you have owned and operated new car dealerships for 40 years, you know that.
Whenever I ordered cars, I never signed a contract on the order - just put on a relatively small deposit, and the actual contract would be signed once the car was built and arrived at the dealership.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
Putting aside the conflating of a "buyer's order" vs an actual contract, I don't see how a true contract could not be written with enough specificity, even without a VIN, to make it enforceable. Dealer will sell buyer a 2021 Honda Accord Touring, in Azure Blue with black interior, with all weather floor mats and wheel locks. There's no ambiguity as to what I'm contracting to purchase. BUT-- no court will ever grant a buyer specific performance, even with a VIN number, if money damages are sufficient, unless the car in question is irreplaceable -- like if you were buying a classic car.
That’s not to say the dealer won’t sell you a car with those characteristics it just doesn’t have to be that specific one.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Likes: 20
From: Ohio
Did you or someone you know ever order a car and put a deposit down? Did you sign a dealer's buyer's order...which is a contract when properly executed. When that car came in and that purchaser refused to consummate that purchase, did you ever hear of the person losing their deposit? They do every day!
Contracts are two party agreements and work both ways. Often, litigation for enforcement is necessary. I have on several occasions kept that deposit and on more than one occasion defended that decision successfully in court. Of course the Judge was nowhere as knowledgeable as you purport to be and had not had the benefit of reading as many forums.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
Likes: 20
From: Ohio
Putting aside the conflating of a "buyer's order" vs an actual contract, I don't see how a true contract could not be written with enough specificity, even without a VIN, to make it enforceable. Dealer will sell buyer a 2021 Honda Accord Touring, in Azure Blue with black interior, with all weather floor mats and wheel locks. There's no ambiguity as to what I'm contracting to purchase. BUT-- no court will ever grant a buyer specific performance, even with a VIN number, if money damages are sufficient, unless the car in question is irreplaceable -- like if you were buying a classic car.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
Yes I have ordered several cars and put deposits down. Everything I have said stands. There’s no way I as a buyer can force the dealer to sell me a specific car based on that agreement because there is no agreement linked to that specific car, only to the promise to order a car that meets that criteria.
Sure dealers keep money every day…because they have performed under the agreement when the car comes in, the dealer is not required to sell the buyer ANY car that comes in that meets that criteria, just A car.
If we have an agreement for me to sell you a White House on 3 acres but we don’t specify an address, you can’t make me sell you whichever White House you want me to sell you.
Sure dealers keep money every day…because they have performed under the agreement when the car comes in, the dealer is not required to sell the buyer ANY car that comes in that meets that criteria, just A car.
If we have an agreement for me to sell you a White House on 3 acres but we don’t specify an address, you can’t make me sell you whichever White House you want me to sell you.
Last edited by SW17LS; Sep 17, 2021 at 04:43 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,487
Likes: 386
From: ON/NY
When I purchased my Corolla in 2014, there was no VIN determined, but I left a $1000 deposit and it definitely was binding. When I bought by new 214R there was no VIN to determine however I just wanted a blue limited… 3 months late t…as it came to port in British Columbia, I was sent a VIN but I had not left any deposit
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
When I purchased my Corolla in 2014, there was no VIN determined, but I left a $1000 deposit and it definitely was binding. When I bought by new 214R there was no VIN to determine however I just wanted a blue limited… 3 months late t…as it came to port in British Columbia, I was sent a VIN but I had not left any deposit
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,826
Likes: 4,103
From: Maryland
The dispute is whether or not the dealer has to give you the first car that comes in that meets your order criteria or if they can choose to sell it to someone else for more money. Since you agreement wasn’t for a specific car with a specific VIN, they can.
