My narrative isn't revisionist or absurd. It's exact how it was initially received. It wasn't as fast as the S and 7. It wasn't as spacious. It didn't handle as well. But it did a lot of other things very well.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...mparison-test/

What we found out is that BMW and MB didn't define the luxury car market. C&D didn't either. Consumers did. Same goes for today with the ES.

 

The comparison of the ES and the LS just doesnt make sense to me

 

My point is that many of the same thing being said he about the ES in regards to the E and 5 to somehow support claims that it isn't a real entry level luxury car were also said about the LS when it was introduced. It's a Toyota. It's not as fast and doesn't handle as well. If anything, it's the E and 5 that aren't entry level anymore.

 

I don't see where anybody has said the ES is not a real entry level luxury car. The E and 5 have never been entry level, they are in fact midlevel, not sure where anyone said they were entry level.

What I said was with the ES you get a car that is a size up from the entry level cars you get with Mercedes and BMW (which would be the C Class and below, and the 3 Series and below) for the same money. The tradeoff is you dont get the sophisticated underpinnings, but you save a lot of money. Thats why I chose the ES the times I did.

 

Motorola, please exit this thread. If there is an issue in future threads, report it and let the moderators review rather than call out other members. An easier avenue is to not respond or simply agree to disagree.

If a member's posts consistently bother you, use the ignore feature of our forum. https://www.clublexus.com/forums/pro...?do=ignorelist

other members please don’t continue to respond to Motorola; not fair if he can’t reply. (Posts removed)

 

This is what started that discussion. I'll bash Lexus without any bias when they do something I think is wrong, like with the LS. I'll defend them when I think they get it right. I once considered the ES and RX Toyota plus, but I was wrong based on my recent experiences. Both are fantastic entry level luxury vehicles based on where they are positioned in the market.

And I agree with your statement and what I stated earlier. The E and 5 aren't entry level, so the comparison was flawed from the start.

 

ES is a lovely FWD-based entry level luxury car, and it's selling well; we can't expect too much build quality for $50k.
LS is a lovely full size luxury car, and for 4 generations over nearly 30 years, LS sales led its segment on debut.
Rolls Royces and Bentleys are lovely "super full size" luxury vehicles [or whatever you like to call them], about a foot longer than the likes of S Class/7 Series/A8/LS, and these super full sized vehicles do equally well.

Everything is doing fine; I don't know what all the fuss is about?

 

this thread is about the ES. not sure why we're discussing LS, 7, S-class, etc. let alone Rolls Royces and Bentleys.

 

Agreed. The RX and the ES really are still "Toyota Plus" its just that the Toyotas they are "Plussed" from are much better than they were.

 

^This

Also, the ES is an exceptional used car value. mid-upper $20k for a gently used 3-4 year old ES that will last you a decade without any major problems? Yes, tech is lacking, but for most people, i think this is a fantastic bargain.

 

I'm sure there are buyers and people that didnt buy voted with their wallets. It sends the most powerful message ever, more so than any publications and websites.

 

No doubt. My buddy bought a 2016 with 28k miles on it for $26k CPO. Great value.

 

I found the new ES to be significantly better than the last gen. Both quieter and smoother. For some reason, all the last gen ESs I drove felt like you could feel vibration in the steering wheel, even a idle. Felt it in a couple of loaner. The new one is smooth as butter.

 

For sure, its a big improvement.

That vibration in the steering at idle was a common issue with FWD Toyotas.

 

Owner of 2020 ES, traded up last December from a 2010 ES. Because there was such a gap between the two, I'm pretty bowled over by the tech, style and beauty of the 2020. I got the pearl white with the Flaxen interior. Still kind of keeping a low profile due to Covid, so haven't experienced much highway yet. So I can't comment on the wind noise. In general, I have to say both Lexus and Toyota seat comfort has gone down with every newer model. My first Lexus was a 2002 LS, so I would expect it to be comfortable and it was, the 2010 ES wasn't as comfortable but I cracked that up to it not being an LS and the 2020 is even less comfortable. I've been wondering if it's just cheaper materials, or if it's because the 2020 has cooling/heated seats and the 2010 was only heated. Because I drive my cars for such a long time, all changes seem pretty good overall, but there are always things that seem less so. So yes, the seat are less comfortable. I only listen to talk radio, so the audio issues are not a concern to me at all. My BF has both a 2018 and a2011 6 cyl Camry. We find the 2011 much more comfortable for long drives than the 2020 ES and the 2018 Camry, but my 2010 ES was better. I am really thinking it's a price point issue and cuts are being made by people who don't actually drive the car. Don't get me started on the awkward placement of cup holders. ; )