Interesting, then we owe it to ourselves to drive it....I would say the E9x was the peak of 3'dom, and yes I have to disclaim by saying I have owned a E92 since brand new. I have driven relatives' E36's and E46's, none of which still have them, and I would honestly say the E9x is an improvement. What's really changed imho about the newer cars (the G and the F) is that they are not torque deficient anymore. My buddy had a 1999? 323i, and like the E9x 325i, the torque didn't even pass muster for the time (it was laughable maybe like a 4 cyl. Altima). From memory, even a 330i had around 230 ft. lbs. which was s***** wind for a 2006 car. No cars today fall in that category, the G20 is at 295 ft. lbs....

At any rate, any BMW that I would purchase, would still be in my garage 20 years from now, and handed down. I think my sights are on the M cars, and they are really difficult for me to justify because it's going to be an expensive car to have sitting in the garage and arguably unnecessary....I'll keep at it. M2 is pushing it today at 61k. When I look at it I say sweet, it's the real deal, but can't I do better and get a M3 sedan?

The track performance of the new 3 series is irrelevant in todays world, people already know that BMW has track heritage and you can get the performance if wanted. What new modern buyers are after is tech, style, luxury and the prestige. New 3 series has that in spades, a truly nice fresh design. Just look at 3 series marketing, it’s urban. downtown settings, multicultural. At least that is what BMW blasts on the Raptors and Leafs games.

In contrast to BMW, Lexus will never have to convince people that their cars are quiet (regardless if they are better or worse than the past). What Lexus IS trying to do but with mixed results is show their new Lexus cars are sporty and worth the buy from a performance aspect. Everyone know Lexus makes quiet luxury cars.

PS: this was typed on my iPhone 8 Plus.

I am not too keen on buying a turbo powered M car. There's a reason why people are clamoring for E46 M3's even today. It's not always about massive torque and high horsepower. Besides the NA car's should cost less to maintain. Mint E46 M3's and even E90 M3's that weren't molested are in high demand today. I tend to drive cars harder than the average ****** and so wouldn't want a turbo BMW for long term use.

Anyway, go test drive that G70 3.3 and let us know your thoughts. I will try and schedule an appointment if i can for next Saturday after i drive the 330i. Lucky for me, all the major Luxury makes are within a 3 mile radius of my address so it shouldn't be too difficult to do a back to back comparison.

I hear you, just don't think there are enough buyers (especially new) to support that. What, there are maybe enough cars to fit on one hand that meet that description? Golf R, Golf Sportwagen/Alltrack, Porsche 911, some of the MINI ALL4 variants (Clubman/Countryman), WRX.

It's truly insane that a new 3 series cannot have a stick. Not even as a no-cost option (now how did they get away with that on the F, sticks should cost less than autos). My cousin had a manual X5 (the original gen). I guess that's one reason even my wife is ok with keeping the 335i and getting another BMW or pleasure car (not really this instant depends on child and her job too). I'm beginning to feel that fixed rear calipers are next. they sure seem to have been axed by BMW (M5 carbon ceramic, Alpina B7, both have floating rear calipers). Costs will drive things.

Who knows, maybe the way things are going, people should grab the RC-F too, for its NA V8....I really think that we as consumers are ultimately sheep, kinda again like the 59 oz. orange juice. 5 oz. is not nothing, it's 7.8%. Who wants to pay more or the same, for 7.8% less product. But it's not elastic, so anyone who doesn't like it, their alternative is to not drink OJ. Same with cars, don't like 4 cyl automatic turbos with FWD, and you like NA V8 RWD cars with a stick, well, soon your option may soon be to not have a car...

Every mag I've read says the G70 is noticeably better than the Stinger. It's shorter wheelbase and lighter weight make it one of the class leaders in handling. The tech in the new 3 series will be better though. I don't really care much about that though. Just more stuff that can go wrong. Give me a great chassis and power train for a good price and I'm there.

I wouldn't say irrelevant, but, you do have a point.

Way back when when things were good and bean counters took a back seat to engineers, BMW would have a sport package option (I would have to dig up my window sticker to be exact) for about $1,400. Many said this was a duh, no-brainer. You get sport seats with large side bolsters, you already broke even on the $1,400. But you also got an external oil cooler, larger rims and staggered tires, sport shocks and springs. It almost became like ordering a Porsche that is not an S. You don't do that.

But, I would estimate that 50+% did not get the sport package even back when it was $1,400. Main reason I would hear was they didn't want summer tires as this would mean getting snow tires in much of the country. So to some extent, how a car handles does take a back seat to cool led interior lighting, Apple play, and floor mats embroidered with special letters and numbers.

Again, I'll say it. To be able to smell Michelin Pilot Sport 4s' burning, and to know they're not your own, is a good feeling. You can't do that to a car on a test drive, and really? without a professional instructor because on a test drive, you simply likely do not know the capabilities of the vehicle, where the instructor beside you does. My own car has Pilot Super Sports and I have never done that to them, I can't afford to, nor the consequences if I lost grip.

p.s. this is what I meant about the disappearing rear fixed calipers. I never noticed and thought it was theft on the new S classes and A8Ls not using them in the rears. Come to find it's going all around. These are the coveted gold calipers, too! I am saddened...

BMW brakes have always been a bit of a weakspot, M included, but they do get the job done. To the current debate, it's the front brakes and not the rears that do the heavy lifting, though, and they are indeed fixed. Some of it may be cost cutting, but mostly it is because by and large it doesn't make much difference and because the parking brake is electronic and uses the rears.

You're 100% correct but I still don't like it. When Vettes and 911s go to floating calipers I'm getting a new hobby.

LOL too true bud. I don't disagree at all haha

Thanks for the reminder, OP. I will register for the San Francisco one. I did the 5 Series version in 2017 and the best part were the unlimited test drives of the other BMWs after the autox events. Wish they went back to the Navy base so the autox events are longer like in 2014 with the 2 Series version.

Lexus offered something similar with the LC launch, the NX launch, and the RC launch in 2017 and 2015/14. Good in comparison, but no unlimited test drives of other Lexuses outside the location.

The really good ones you have to pay like the Laguna Seca one coming up. Definitely miss driving the GS F on track.

I wonder if the new 3 Series will make it back on C&D's 10 Best list.

Ok guys, this thread shouldn’t be more whining about how things are not like the ‘good old days’... it’s getting really old.

let’s keep it to discussion of the new 3 series and competitors.

Well, I'm gonna have to say, is the G20 a winner, or a loser? It is not like what it replaces, so winner.

Problem? Price tag. But then again, has any BMW been a "no-brainer?" It, again, has the Apple effect, it will cost more, there will be some $$$$$ going to the name.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. 330i's are typical loaner cars, one could snag one at 5,999 miles, to get the price down. Most likely, those will be loaded cars but lack the track package ie not have the Pilot 4s'. At some point, more and more of us will have driven these cars by virtue of them being loaners, and we'll really have a good feel for them. Personally, I don't believe you can know all about a vehicle driving it on a test drive for say 10 miles, but you can get a good feel spending the day with a car and driving it 100-200 miles. I spent 4 1/2 mos. in a 328i / F30 loaner during Takata, and I can tell you unequivocally, no bueno. I don't care if this car is $10k off, $20k off, nein danke.

The new 3 is a winner and it's a step in the right direction. No manual, not good, but what can we do? Nothing. Price is high. What can we do? Settle for something less, if that's what we want. I say this car has about a 60% chance that it has reclaimed its spot--my bet is it's on the C&D 10 Best again.

My bet is that the G70 gets on the 10 best and the 2 series represents BMW while the 3 series gets left off again.