drove the new 3 series
#31
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
You'd be surprise at the G70, critics says it drives better than the Stinger, the weight difference in and of itself should have hinted to that. Hell I need to add that to my list as well. The 3.3 liter G70 can be had for less than 50K and will is better compared to the 340I. BMW is no longer the leader in driving dynamics in the sport compact sedan category and probably never will again. I have owned E36's and E46's that most would say were better drivers car than even the E90.
At any rate, any BMW that I would purchase, would still be in my garage 20 years from now, and handed down. I think my sights are on the M cars, and they are really difficult for me to justify because it's going to be an expensive car to have sitting in the garage and arguably unnecessary....I'll keep at it. M2 is pushing it today at 61k. When I look at it I say sweet, it's the real deal, but can't I do better and get a M3 sedan?
#32
Lexus Fanatic
I disagree, and agree.
No, I don't think a G70 would drive the same, maybe a Stinger would. But now, you're also dealing with what I consider the Apple factor. Sometimes, the competition gets zero credit for being on par, and people just want what they want. This becomes blatant with say X1 or X2 etc. Who would get that? I went Apple when I saw I could get the Xs flagship for $249 last Thanksgiving. Today I carry a S8 and the Xs. I think the S8 on Pie outperforms the Xs, and it is 2.5 gen older. But Apple folks don't care, it's Apple.
I was thinking about how some including myself feel Lexus has lost its way. In Fall 1989, the 4 objectives were accomplished. fuel economy, top speed, aerodynamics, and quietness. It was such a feat that BMW accused Toyota Motor of selling the LS400 below cost. I really coudn't find it online, but didn't the LS400 have a top speed of 160 mph?
So today, BMW sits there with an Alpina B7. It has a top speed of 205 mph. Back in the 80's? By the end of the decade, Toyota could sell for mass production, a car that outdid BMW (on paper and with specs). Today? I don't even think it's possible (to sell to the masses/i.e. production vehicle).
No, I don't think a G70 would drive the same, maybe a Stinger would. But now, you're also dealing with what I consider the Apple factor. Sometimes, the competition gets zero credit for being on par, and people just want what they want. This becomes blatant with say X1 or X2 etc. Who would get that? I went Apple when I saw I could get the Xs flagship for $249 last Thanksgiving. Today I carry a S8 and the Xs. I think the S8 on Pie outperforms the Xs, and it is 2.5 gen older. But Apple folks don't care, it's Apple.
I was thinking about how some including myself feel Lexus has lost its way. In Fall 1989, the 4 objectives were accomplished. fuel economy, top speed, aerodynamics, and quietness. It was such a feat that BMW accused Toyota Motor of selling the LS400 below cost. I really coudn't find it online, but didn't the LS400 have a top speed of 160 mph?
So today, BMW sits there with an Alpina B7. It has a top speed of 205 mph. Back in the 80's? By the end of the decade, Toyota could sell for mass production, a car that outdid BMW (on paper and with specs). Today? I don't even think it's possible (to sell to the masses/i.e. production vehicle).
In contrast to BMW, Lexus will never have to convince people that their cars are quiet (regardless if they are better or worse than the past). What Lexus IS trying to do but with mixed results is show their new Lexus cars are sporty and worth the buy from a performance aspect. Everyone know Lexus makes quiet luxury cars.
PS: this was typed on my iPhone 8 Plus.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-21-19 at 07:58 AM.
#33
I am not too keen on buying a turbo powered M car. There's a reason why people are clamoring for E46 M3's even today. It's not always about massive torque and high horsepower. Besides the NA car's should cost less to maintain. Mint E46 M3's and even E90 M3's that weren't molested are in high demand today. I tend to drive cars harder than the average ****** and so wouldn't want a turbo BMW for long term use.
Anyway, go test drive that G70 3.3 and let us know your thoughts. I will try and schedule an appointment if i can for next Saturday after i drive the 330i. Lucky for me, all the major Luxury makes are within a 3 mile radius of my address so it shouldn't be too difficult to do a back to back comparison.
Anyway, go test drive that G70 3.3 and let us know your thoughts. I will try and schedule an appointment if i can for next Saturday after i drive the 330i. Lucky for me, all the major Luxury makes are within a 3 mile radius of my address so it shouldn't be too difficult to do a back to back comparison.
#34
I hear you, just don't think there are enough buyers (especially new) to support that. What, there are maybe enough cars to fit on one hand that meet that description? Golf R, Golf Sportwagen/Alltrack, Porsche 911, some of the MINI ALL4 variants (Clubman/Countryman), WRX.
#35
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I hear you, just don't think there are enough buyers (especially new) to support that. What, there are maybe enough cars to fit on one hand that meet that description? Golf R, Golf Sportwagen/Alltrack, Porsche 911, some of the MINI ALL4 variants (Clubman/Countryman), WRX.
#36
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I am not too keen on buying a turbo powered M car. There's a reason why people are clamoring for E46 M3's even today. It's not always about massive torque and high horsepower. Besides the NA car's should cost less to maintain. Mint E46 M3's and even E90 M3's that weren't molested are in high demand today. I tend to drive cars harder than the average ****** and so wouldn't want a turbo BMW for long term use.
Anyway, go test drive that G70 3.3 and let us know your thoughts. I will try and schedule an appointment if i can for next Saturday after i drive the 330i. Lucky for me, all the major Luxury makes are within a 3 mile radius of my address so it shouldn't be too difficult to do a back to back comparison.
Anyway, go test drive that G70 3.3 and let us know your thoughts. I will try and schedule an appointment if i can for next Saturday after i drive the 330i. Lucky for me, all the major Luxury makes are within a 3 mile radius of my address so it shouldn't be too difficult to do a back to back comparison.
#37
Lexus Test Driver
Every mag I've read says the G70 is noticeably better than the Stinger. It's shorter wheelbase and lighter weight make it one of the class leaders in handling. The tech in the new 3 series will be better though. I don't really care much about that though. Just more stuff that can go wrong. Give me a great chassis and power train for a good price and I'm there.
#38
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
The track performance of the new 3 series is irrelevant in todays world, people already know that BMW has track heritage and you can get the performance if wanted. What new modern buyers are after is tech, style, luxury and the prestige. New 3 series has that in spades, a truly nice fresh design. Just look at 3 series marketing, it’s urban. downtown settings, multicultural. At least that is what BMW blasts on the Raptors and Leafs games.
In contrast to BMW, Lexus will never have to convince people that their cars are quiet (regardless if they are better or worse than the past). What Lexus IS trying to do but with mixed results is show their new Lexus cars are sporty and worth the buy from a performance aspect. Everyone know Lexus makes quiet luxury cars.
PS: this was typed on my iPhone 8 Plus.
In contrast to BMW, Lexus will never have to convince people that their cars are quiet (regardless if they are better or worse than the past). What Lexus IS trying to do but with mixed results is show their new Lexus cars are sporty and worth the buy from a performance aspect. Everyone know Lexus makes quiet luxury cars.
PS: this was typed on my iPhone 8 Plus.
Way back when when things were good and bean counters took a back seat to engineers, BMW would have a sport package option (I would have to dig up my window sticker to be exact) for about $1,400. Many said this was a duh, no-brainer. You get sport seats with large side bolsters, you already broke even on the $1,400. But you also got an external oil cooler, larger rims and staggered tires, sport shocks and springs. It almost became like ordering a Porsche that is not an S. You don't do that.
But, I would estimate that 50+% did not get the sport package even back when it was $1,400. Main reason I would hear was they didn't want summer tires as this would mean getting snow tires in much of the country. So to some extent, how a car handles does take a back seat to cool led interior lighting, Apple play, and floor mats embroidered with special letters and numbers.
Again, I'll say it. To be able to smell Michelin Pilot Sport 4s' burning, and to know they're not your own, is a good feeling. You can't do that to a car on a test drive, and really? without a professional instructor because on a test drive, you simply likely do not know the capabilities of the vehicle, where the instructor beside you does. My own car has Pilot Super Sports and I have never done that to them, I can't afford to, nor the consequences if I lost grip.
p.s. this is what I meant about the disappearing rear fixed calipers. I never noticed and thought it was theft on the new S classes and A8Ls not using them in the rears. Come to find it's going all around. These are the coveted gold calipers, too! I am saddened...
#39
Pole Position
BMW brakes have always been a bit of a weakspot, M included, but they do get the job done. To the current debate, it's the front brakes and not the rears that do the heavy lifting, though, and they are indeed fixed. Some of it may be cost cutting, but mostly it is because by and large it doesn't make much difference and because the parking brake is electronic and uses the rears.
#40
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
BMW brakes have always been a bit of a weakspot, M included, but they do get the job done. To the current debate, it's the front brakes and not the rears that do the heavy lifting, though, and they are indeed fixed. Some of it may be cost cutting, but mostly it is because by and large it doesn't make much difference and because the parking brake is electronic and uses the rears.
#42
Intermediate
Thanks for the reminder, OP. I will register for the San Francisco one. I did the 5 Series version in 2017 and the best part were the unlimited test drives of the other BMWs after the autox events. Wish they went back to the Navy base so the autox events are longer like in 2014 with the 2 Series version.
Lexus offered something similar with the LC launch, the NX launch, and the RC launch in 2017 and 2015/14. Good in comparison, but no unlimited test drives of other Lexuses outside the location.
The really good ones you have to pay like the Laguna Seca one coming up. Definitely miss driving the GS F on track.
I wonder if the new 3 Series will make it back on C&D's 10 Best list.
Lexus offered something similar with the LC launch, the NX launch, and the RC launch in 2017 and 2015/14. Good in comparison, but no unlimited test drives of other Lexuses outside the location.
The really good ones you have to pay like the Laguna Seca one coming up. Definitely miss driving the GS F on track.
I wonder if the new 3 Series will make it back on C&D's 10 Best list.
#43
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Ok guys, this thread shouldn’t be more whining about how things are not like the ‘good old days’... it’s getting really old.
let’s keep it to discussion of the new 3 series and competitors.
let’s keep it to discussion of the new 3 series and competitors.
#44
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Well, I'm gonna have to say, is the G20 a winner, or a loser? It is not like what it replaces, so winner.
Problem? Price tag. But then again, has any BMW been a "no-brainer?" It, again, has the Apple effect, it will cost more, there will be some $$$$$ going to the name.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. 330i's are typical loaner cars, one could snag one at 5,999 miles, to get the price down. Most likely, those will be loaded cars but lack the track package ie not have the Pilot 4s'. At some point, more and more of us will have driven these cars by virtue of them being loaners, and we'll really have a good feel for them. Personally, I don't believe you can know all about a vehicle driving it on a test drive for say 10 miles, but you can get a good feel spending the day with a car and driving it 100-200 miles. I spent 4 1/2 mos. in a 328i / F30 loaner during Takata, and I can tell you unequivocally, no bueno. I don't care if this car is $10k off, $20k off, nein danke.
The new 3 is a winner and it's a step in the right direction. No manual, not good, but what can we do? Nothing. Price is high. What can we do? Settle for something less, if that's what we want. I say this car has about a 60% chance that it has reclaimed its spot--my bet is it's on the C&D 10 Best again.
Problem? Price tag. But then again, has any BMW been a "no-brainer?" It, again, has the Apple effect, it will cost more, there will be some $$$$$ going to the name.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. 330i's are typical loaner cars, one could snag one at 5,999 miles, to get the price down. Most likely, those will be loaded cars but lack the track package ie not have the Pilot 4s'. At some point, more and more of us will have driven these cars by virtue of them being loaners, and we'll really have a good feel for them. Personally, I don't believe you can know all about a vehicle driving it on a test drive for say 10 miles, but you can get a good feel spending the day with a car and driving it 100-200 miles. I spent 4 1/2 mos. in a 328i / F30 loaner during Takata, and I can tell you unequivocally, no bueno. I don't care if this car is $10k off, $20k off, nein danke.
The new 3 is a winner and it's a step in the right direction. No manual, not good, but what can we do? Nothing. Price is high. What can we do? Settle for something less, if that's what we want. I say this car has about a 60% chance that it has reclaimed its spot--my bet is it's on the C&D 10 Best again.
#45
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by Johnhav430
Well, I'm gonna have to say, is the G20 a winner, or a loser? It is not like what it replaces, so winner.
Problem? Price tag. But then again, has any BMW been a "no-brainer?" It, again, has the Apple effect, it will cost more, there will be some $$$$$ going to the name.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. 330i's are typical loaner cars, one could snag one at 5,999 miles, to get the price down. Most likely, those will be loaded cars but lack the track package ie not have the Pilot 4s'. At some point, more and more of us will have driven these cars by virtue of them being loaners, and we'll really have a good feel for them. Personally, I don't believe you can know all about a vehicle driving it on a test drive for say 10 miles, but you can get a good feel spending the day with a car and driving it 100-200 miles. I spent 4 1/2 mos. in a 328i / F30 loaner during Takata, and I can tell you unequivocally, no bueno. I don't care if this car is $10k off, $20k off, nein danke.
The new 3 is a winner and it's a step in the right direction. No manual, not good, but what can we do? Nothing. Price is high. What can we do? Settle for something less, if that's what we want. I say this car has about a 60% chance that it has reclaimed its spot--my bet is it's on the C&D 10 Best again.
Problem? Price tag. But then again, has any BMW been a "no-brainer?" It, again, has the Apple effect, it will cost more, there will be some $$$$$ going to the name.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. 330i's are typical loaner cars, one could snag one at 5,999 miles, to get the price down. Most likely, those will be loaded cars but lack the track package ie not have the Pilot 4s'. At some point, more and more of us will have driven these cars by virtue of them being loaners, and we'll really have a good feel for them. Personally, I don't believe you can know all about a vehicle driving it on a test drive for say 10 miles, but you can get a good feel spending the day with a car and driving it 100-200 miles. I spent 4 1/2 mos. in a 328i / F30 loaner during Takata, and I can tell you unequivocally, no bueno. I don't care if this car is $10k off, $20k off, nein danke.
The new 3 is a winner and it's a step in the right direction. No manual, not good, but what can we do? Nothing. Price is high. What can we do? Settle for something less, if that's what we want. I say this car has about a 60% chance that it has reclaimed its spot--my bet is it's on the C&D 10 Best again.
My bet is that the G70 gets on the 10 best and the 2 series represents BMW while the 3 series gets left off again.