mmarshall

Most of us here on Car Chat couldn't run an auto company. We're too honest.

Johnny Mayday

Yeah, it's bad enough that Toyota farmed out development of the Supra to BMW... But letting BMW under the hood at Lexus is a terrible idea. A huge part of the reason people buy a Lexus is the reliability factor, and I don't trust BMW engines to go the distance. It could really hurt their reputation if Lexus stop being high mileage vehicles.

Sulu

The 2JZ engine is not coming back. It is a truly ancient engine.

Funny how so many members want to get rid of the 2GR, claiming that it is old (the design of the engine block is about 15 years old), yet want to bring back the truly ancient, 30 year old 2JZ.

mmarshall

Oldies are sometimes goodies. The 2JZ was tough as nails. Look, of example, how long 5.7Ls were (successfully) used in Corvettes. And, besides, with modern DI, in a number of ways, the 2JZ wouldn't even be the same engine.

Kira X

iTrader: (24)

I heard a similar rumor from one of our techs at my dealership. He said he heard that one of the new Lexus’ was going to use a BMW engine but that was all he knew.

HOMER350

I had a 2JZ SC300 and it was tough as nails...but I was getting 17 mpg at best lol. Didn't both me at the time but these days just doesn't fly. Maybe with the modern DI it'd make the difference. I always pictures the new Supra coming back with the 2JZ, a dreamer I suppose
Maybe a 3JZ like mentioned before with some modern touches.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

it’s easy to live in the past...

Stroock639

apart from the executives who probably wont be making as much money under my regime, who would be unhappy if all those things happened?

arentz07

Not going to lie, it's a nice engine. I drove a 335i that my coworker recently purchased, and the engine was one of the highlights. Really smooth power delivery, good throttle response, unnoticeable turbo lag, and an appealing, if not characterful, sound. I'd miss the intake-sound-generator noises of the current ISs with the 3.5-liter engine, but I wouldn't be terribly upset to have that engine instead. That said, I do like the idea of Lexus having their uniquely tuned/designed engines for their sedans and coupes like they do now.

Benoit

Little question to the group. Wasn't Toyota deeply involved in the built of the B58 engine ? I think I remember to have read that the B58 was corrected several times by Toyota engineers and that he was intenisvely analysed and reliability tested in the Toyota centers in Japan.

But I understand the "don't disolve the image of your brand things" and so on. The public would not understand the presence of a BMW block into a Lexus. Lots of those where already unhappy german car customers before and specifically got to Lexus for not having this cr_p anymore. Also, even if the engine was a joint project between Toyota and BMW, normal peoples that aren't car guys, would only understand that "there is a BMW engine inside of that", and would run away.

And yes, I'm also sharing the opinion that Toyota could need a "brought up to date" I6 engine. I had a thread on this forum about a french guy, that suggested that launches the production of a new 2JZ version (let's call it 2GG4JZ -> Word play with Japanese "too old for a JZ"). In the actual day, this engine could/should have :
- 2.7L displacement, for a more compact size, less weight and less emssions without beeing undersized
- Atkinson cycle capacity
- port and direct injection
- Toyota's new dynamic force engine concept included

All those thing could give a pretty impressive little engine. Probably capable of 240 Horsepower to the crank with a very good torque characteristics (NA specs), and realistic 30-35 mpg highway. Even better mileages could be achieved in combined with the Toyota Hybrid technology. And a little 320 HP crank when boosted with a twinscroll turbo. Maybe more, but I wouldn't expect that (because Toyota would make sure that those engines will not come in the way of their biggest sport engine).

But would Toyota even do that ? I mean, we have already discussed the incoming of EV on this forum. Would it make any sense to develope another explosion engine in this context ?


(For my part, I also had this wild dream, that a Toyota Hybrid system could be paired with a Turbo engine, but would require some tweaks of the Turbo, for making sure he doesn't start spooling when the Atkinson cycle is engaged)

arentz07

I think you're spot on, @Benoit. The "New 2JZ" idea actually could have made sense, as it would have dropped into Lexus's fleet quite nicely, at least, in longitudinally-mounted applications. With that displacement and power output, it would have been a perfect fit for entry-level or mid-level options like a theoretical GS or IS. That said, they don't have any options outside of those sedans and coupes that could use this engine, realistically (I think SUVs, perhaps, with the turbo version of said engine). Most of Lexus's other vehicles, particularly volume sellers, have transversely-mounted engines, which don't want to be inline-six engines for obvious reasons (leading to development of engines like the 2GR, which is shared across both types of platforms). BMW doesn't have this problem, as their entire portfolio outside of entry-level models is compatible with their inline six.

mmarshall

Yes, mine also had a hard time getting more then 17 MPG unless one was free of stop and go traffic. But, as mentioned before, that's where a modern DI system fitted to it would be beneficial...better power and MPG.

Johnhav430

I don't know all the ins/outs but I know the B58 was a 340i engine. It seems to me that mfgs work back to the answer, as we might have done when we were 18 and in chem or physics lab. And of course as full blown adults. I just remember knowing that the exhaust on a B58 was totally fake, like a pontiac G6, a muffler turned sideways with two outlets, yet the numbers it put out were even better than the N54 and N55. I priced it out and the N54 exhaust was north of $6k, the N55 < 50%, and the B58 25%. Simplistically I said that the B58 does things by software, not hardware. And we shade trees use our imagination and wonder, what happens 5 or 10 or 15 years later? So if Toyota relies on a B58, it wouldn't be what I consider ideal. I would rather have Toyota design their own inline 6, and use engineering with conservative software, to achieve results and reliability. My .02. I thought the B58 was designed with modularity in mind, i.e. they could derive a 3 cyl. 4 cyl, etc. out of its design, and that is not true with the N54.

geko29

The N20 2.0L I-4 introduced in 2011 was an N55 with two cylinders chopped off. The N55, in turn, was basically an N54 with a single twin-scroll turbo instead of two separate turbos. So I'm pretty sure modularity was in the cards all along.

Sulu

Since you are such an expert on the 2JZ engine, you should get Chairman Stroock to hire you as the Chief 2JZ Engineer, and your chief responsibility will be to resurrect the 2JZ engine.