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Was one of the objectives to try to cram people into a small on the inside, expensive car, while eliminating two cylinders?
LOL, not exactly. I do think the perspective on how it was developed (provided to me), will naturally be a bit too biased on the side of product planners and not so much from an objective viewpoint. Chief engineer Toshio Asahi was wrapped up in finishing up the 2013 ES, when he was assigned the 200B LS programme at the end of 2011.
I have always hated the fact, that an engineer responsible for a mid-sized entry level model, got handed the reigns for the company's flagship in dire need of a major rethink. I even question if the budget for 200B, excluding some shared components, was less than $1 billion dollars? That has been deliberately omitted, in an attempt to save face. All other flagships get the needed billion-euro/dollar budget, save for Hyundai that make do with their funds somehow.
In my time at JLR, I would have never had the title of chief engineer on the X760 compact programme (XE) and then the title to work on the flagship XJ that followed it. Why wasn't someone with great experience, as in the former project lead Haruhiko Tanahashi for the P280 LFA given the job in 2011? I understand he retired midway through 200B development, but that could've easily been his swan song.
Unlike the LC, I have been worried that the LS was seen as an afterthought by CEO Toyoda in not being a "sports car" and is why a failing model like the RC, still is not dropped and is still getting investment, as if not a money loser. He was giddy to present his new LC coupe in 2016 at the NAIAS, in 2017 he opted for the gold mine all-new Camry over the equally all-new LS flagship, and then the sports car Supra 2 years later. That shows a lot of where that extra creative push from the CEO goes to. I have seen photos of him in 010B final design reviews for the current Camry, dated 2014. I saw little for the LS 200B programme, back in 2013.
Toyota had a fifth generation LS model getting underway 11 years ago in their pre-development sector, shifting directions by the end of 2009 and investing in a second MMC for fall 2012 intro, essentially a redesign on the same platform for MY 2013. The reasons for that XF40 III (2013 model), be it the economic collapse or just plain resource exhaustion from the LFA programme, I'm not 100%. All I know is, they already finished styling of that car by late 2010 and locked it in by February 2011.
The current car really would have done well with the execution of the LF-FC in production form, but that area has been unusually murky. Where the production model was in clay by July 2014 and the LF-FC, barely by December 3, 2014. Toyota used a rejected alternative 200B production design proposal for the 2015 LF-FC Concept, to give an idea of what's coming, without being too forward about it so earlier on.
I've said this in other posts about the LS, but I live on the Westside of Los Angeles where luxury cars are a dime a dozen. When there is a new model luxury car out, we see them on the road here - ugly or not. I am NOT seeing the LS on the road here. I can count on one hand how many times I've seen the new LS on the road in Los Angeles/Southern California since its launch. I also don't see the LC, but that one was expected.
The 5LS prototype does look absolutely great below, but apparently the design for the 5LS had already been approved and committed before this gorgeous sexy prototype was released publicly at the motor show below.
If President Akio could invest big money into doing a FULL reskinning of the 5LS at its mid-life update just like the FULL reskin of the 2012-18 Camry, then the 5.5LS will sell like hot cakes.
If TMC can do a full mid-life reskin for the previous gen Camry, I don't see why they can't do a full reskin for the 5LS?
That is something positive for Steve and GStar!
Original 2012 Camry
2015 Camry mid-life update FULLY reskinned!
As someone that has worked in product planning, I really want to differentiate between "concept" and "prototype". An automotive prototype is an early, pre-production representation of vehicle intended for production. A concept car or design study like the LF-FC, was never a prototype for the 200B programme. Maybe that might apply to the fuel cell model, which is now cancelled. The cars seen rolling in camouflage are prototypes, not show cars like the LF-FC. The LF-LC can count as a prototype, to a degree.
The LF-FC was based on a rejected, alternative design proposal for the LS programme from over 5 years ago. The final design was quietly settled on and then withheld from being used as a preview in concept form. What they did is take the alternative, but similar enough competing proposal and turn it into a concept starting in the summer of 2014.
This was done, because the design language for both proposals was similar enough and they could show the future LS design direction, without being too exact, too early on.
I remember saying back in 2015, no one would see a new LS until sometime in 2017. In the end, that happened, unlike many wrong predictions.
What I didn't expect, is how Toyota pulled a bait and switch in this manner and used an alternative proposal to tease the car at Tokyo 2015. I have internal Lexus Design photos of the alt. production design proposal, which influenced the LF-FC Concept and probably publicized them already.
As for the Camry XV50 facelift, that only worked because Toyota made the right decisions in 2011 at launch, to execute a major update mid-cycle. Shortly before Christmas in 2012, is when the 2015 Camry design was a-go. It had to be done at that point, to make sure it was ready for production in mid-2014, because the changes weren't even frozen until circa Spring 2013. The new Camry was styled almost concurrently, getting finished up in 2014 (styling on 2018 model was done very early).
So to update the LS in this manner, Toyota would have needed the foresight to predict poor market reception and order a major facelift ahead of MY 2021 intro. Unlike the Camry, any MMC LS needs a full 2 years to be finished ahead of introduction. I highly doubt it being feasible, when launch was barely 1 year ago and sales performance was not fully predicted yet.
People keep falsely assuming, because Honda did a new Civic for MY 2012 and then a facelift of that for MY 2013, these things can happen so quickly. It doesn't work like that nor are the intricacies of how Honda managed that quick facelift, known very well in the first place. Either you predict pre-launch your upcoming model is a failure and act accordingly to stave off the risk of it arriving DOA or you wait it out to find out and then deliver changes truly when feasible.
Nothing. Every now and then companies have stars (ala LS400, Evolution, Taurus, Beetle) but stars fade. Unless you have the below attached to your grill, you'll never match it. Goes for any car company. There is too much cache, heritage, prestige, and pedigree for them to falter in society's eyes.
Since 1979, I believe almost every generation of S Class has been beautifully styled; maybe the midlife updated S Class that Princess Diana died in was a bit clumsily styled - but since 1979, virtually all S Classes have sold solidly as a result.
On the other hand, since its introduction in the 1970's, all previous generations of the 7 Series have looked rather ordinary, and sold poorly, and generally sold far worse than Generations 1 to 4 of Lexus LS.
What I am trying to say is that the badge is not good enough, especially over more than 1 generation, if the styling is ordinary.
Ditto Jaguar. European heritage, but hopeless sales.
To be fair to the 5LS the Dec. - Feb. quarter is going to be slow for any car's sales, never mind a luxury flagship. And the new A8 doesn't seem to be doing all that well considering it's completely revamped.
But Lexus executives should be awake at night trying to figure out what went wrong with the decision process that okayed the styling both interior/exterior. It was a deliberate decision to move away from the core buyer group. Once you've lost your main demographic, you're going to have to replace them. And that doesn't look like it's happening in the short term.
Notice how the Germans are all conservatively styled yet still manage to exude elegance, class and prestige? You don't see that when you look at a LS500. You see a wildly overstyled car that is disconnected with all of its busy bits and pieces.
The Germans may style boring sedans like the 7 series, but they make up for that in spades with the performance options and driving experience. The LS is sportier but it doesn't seem to have any other options besides V6tt, or V6 hybrid. So it's a half measure.
When your MSRP has 6 digits after the dollar sign, you better be able to back it up. No wonder there is still 2018 inventory left on dealer lots and discounting has already happened.
Could be worse, look at the A8 sales. That I just don't get. I'm no Audi fan, but the A8 is conservatively styled and has had just better than half of the LS sales this year (526 A8s versus 947 LS500s). I expected better competition from the A8.
Could be worse, look at the A8 sales. That I just don't get. I'm no Audi fan, but the A8 is conservatively styled and has had just better than half of the LS sales this year (526 A8s versus 947 LS500s). I expected better competition from the A8.
Yes. A very surprising result for Audi's A8. This thing is packed with techy stuff, including the way its active suspension can "jump" in a t-bone collision etc.
It gets good reviews, has nice style that hasn't departed from what Audis usually look like, but low sales numbers. Likely sticker shock because the S class is right there in a buyer's mindset.
Since 1979, I believe almost every generation of S Class has been beautifully styled; maybe the midlife updated S Class that Princess Diana died in was a bit clumsily styled - but since 1979, virtually all S Classes have sold solidly as a result.
On the other hand, since its introduction in the 1970's, all previous generations of the 7 Series have looked rather ordinary, and sold poorly, and generally sold far worse than Generations 1 to 4 of Lexus LS.
What I am trying to say is that the badge is not good enough, especially over more than 1 generation, if the styling is ordinary.
Ditto Jaguar. European heritage, but hopeless sales.
Based on what? Your first claim is an opinion, not a fact. The XF20 LS 400 was nearly DOA, that it required a major facelift upfront to differentiate it from the previous gen within 2.5 years. The XF30 LS 430 was a highly derivative or just plainly unoriginal mess, that garnered direct criticism from famed former Daimler-Benz AG design director, Bruno Sacco, responsible for those S-Classes you refer to.
The E32, E38, and E65 gave the S-Class a serious run for its money and overtook the S-Class in some years domestically.
You have to be specific with that statement about sales anyway, considering that BMW's 7 sold way more than the LS globally, in the past (post 1989) and present as a whole. Not just in one country. In 2010, BMW only was short by 23 units (12,275 vs 12,253) stateside.
Then even starting in 2011, the 7er surpassed the LS for a 6 year streak in the USA (thanks to lacklustre 2010 LS refresh), then only taking a backseat last year to the redesigned LS. That dismal 2010MY refresh and delayed redesign hurt this nameplate in many ways. Who knows how well it may do now, basically as a Lexus CLS500L as opposed to genuine S-Class competitor.
At the end of day, BMW Group is making more money on the 7-Series, than Toyota is with the LS500/h. Lexus needs their foot down in every city that MB and BMW dealerships are located globally, outside of Continental Europe.
Grey market shoppers hardly count for much, where the S-Class and even higher end Ghost, can be bought. US sales are a big chunk, but other markets make a huge difference too in overall revenue.
The 2018 LS doing better than a 3-year old BMW, due for MMC doesn't say much. What happens when redesigns come around for 2021 and 2023 for MB and BMW respectively and all Lexus has is a facelifted model? We'll see.
I really don’t understand how any of these giant, long explanations addresss why the sales of the new LS are a dud. Maybe people just don’t want to admit that Lexus really missed what consumers really want. These platform codes are meaningless, just call it the LS500.
Last edited by DaveGS4; 03-06-19 at 05:46 PM.
Reason: no side note, keep on topic pls
I still have yet to see an LS500. I live on the road in a high population area too.
While I like it I can see why it will never match past LS sales (aside from the sedan decline). The styling might just be too much for the older, traditionally more conservative LS customer. The move to a twin turbo V6 from the bulletproof V8 setup is a turn off for people who buy theirs for the long haul. Long term reliability was a reason to buy it over the Germans and people will have doubts about a twin turbo.
Personally I prefer large luxury sedans that have straight classy lines. My favorite LS is the 2007-2012 model. The facelifted spindle grilled one (2013-) just doesn't look nearly as good.
I really don’t understand how any of these giant, long explanations addresss why the sales of the new LS are a dud. Maybe people just don’t want to admit that Lexus really missed what consumers really want.
Lexus isnt interested in customer feedback as it knows whats best for the customer.
I still have yet to see an LS500. I live on the road in a high population area too.
Haven't seen one either, but in a smaller center with no Lexus dealership, it's not surprising. Saw two ES350s and was thinking they were LS sedans, but a closer look proved otherwise. Have seen three W222s, and couple of W221s here.
Personally I prefer large luxury sedans that have straight classy lines. My favorite LS is the 2007-2012 model. The facelifted spindle grilled one (2013-) just doesn't look nearly as good.
It certainly sounds like that's the consensus with big sedan buyers. You can make them large and imposing, but the proportions have to be just right. Even a big Benz grill looks good because it's not wildly overdone. Nice clean lines are a Bauhaus esthetic that the German trio have done for decades.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I really don’t understand how any of these giant, long explanations addresss why the sales of the new LS are a dud. Maybe people just don’t want to admit that Lexus really missed what consumers really want.
Lol. Because the poster you refer to is talking about product planning processes while the rest of the posters are talking about what's wrong with sales no.s vs the competition.
03-06-19, 12:30 PM
