Lexus: Still a luxury brand...or has it become a premium brand?
03-06-19, 11:20 AM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
I view Cadillac and Lincoln as luxury brands on equal footing with Mercedes or BMW or Lexus. I do not see how any of the car models from those two brands cannot be cross shopped somehow with others. The Cadillac V series is far closer or on par with AMG or M than Lexus F is. the Navigator or Escalade are far better than any other large SUV made. So it gets complicated.
03-06-19, 11:33 AM
#32
I knew I forgot one! thank you. Considering most Audi's have nice materials, a plethora of models, I don't think the W12 is still available on A8 anymore but I could be wrong, a strong S model line-up / RS. I'd say Luxury a., but I have no problem with them as Luxury b either. I just think when one says 'Luxury' they immediate think Benz or BMW which is incredible brand power. If I said name me a soda, most would say Coca Cola, name me a smartphone most would say iPhone. Not to say any of the others aren't luxury, they have luxury models like the Navigator and new Aviator.
Just realized I forgot Porsche too. Luxury b.
Just realized I forgot Porsche too. Luxury b.
03-06-19, 11:35 AM
#33
Lexus Test Driver
My Mainstream Luxury Rankings:
Leven 1 = MB and BMW
Level 1a = Audi and Jaguar/Land Rover
Level 2 = Lexus, Cadillac
Level 2a = Volvo, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti
Not a “full” Luxury lineup = Maserati, AlfaRomeo, Genesis
Leven 1 = MB and BMW
Level 1a = Audi and Jaguar/Land Rover
Level 2 = Lexus, Cadillac
Level 2a = Volvo, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti
Not a “full” Luxury lineup = Maserati, AlfaRomeo, Genesis
03-06-19, 11:41 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
It's interesting how there seems to be no disagreement about BMW and Mercedes. Again I think their brands are so strong, they are like Apple. I would even give Mercedes the edge over BMW but not so much that they are in a different category.
03-06-19, 11:43 AM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
I don't know how anyone could walk into a Genesis/Hyundai dealer using letters and names and view Genesis as a true luxury brand when they dont offer the cross over vehicles in the hottest selling segments. I don't believe there should be a distinction between luxury or premium. All of them are luxury brands to me.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 03-06-19 at 12:07 PM.
03-06-19, 01:33 PM
#37
Lexus Test Driver
it is interesting how mercedes carries such a level of apparent prestige in the US, whereas in europe a mercedes is a taxi or a package delivering sprinter van (or the metris)... truth is the vast majority of cars sold by all of the "mainstream" brands are nothing too special
i also think it's funny that everyone here seems to list bmw as being at the "top tier" of luxury, when bmws do almost nothing that luxury cars are supposed to do... the seats are stiff and uncomfortable, same with the ride, they have a convoluted not very intuitive mix of interior controls, and the interiors themselves are full of cheap crappy plastics... the M760i is like a $180k+ car, and the door handles feel like ones you'd find in a early 2000s dodge
i also think it's funny that everyone here seems to list bmw as being at the "top tier" of luxury, when bmws do almost nothing that luxury cars are supposed to do... the seats are stiff and uncomfortable, same with the ride, they have a convoluted not very intuitive mix of interior controls, and the interiors themselves are full of cheap crappy plastics... the M760i is like a $180k+ car, and the door handles feel like ones you'd find in a early 2000s dodge
03-06-19, 02:16 PM
#38
lexus = value luxury brand.
Even though luxury supposed to be glorious tasteless excess, or rather; "the state of great comfort and extravagant living"
I think the main issue to define a luxury brand depends on the person doing the defining. For middle or upper middle class, i suppose lexus would be a luxury brand.
For the 1% or above, probably not! Its all semantics and perceptions...
Even though luxury supposed to be glorious tasteless excess, or rather; "the state of great comfort and extravagant living"
I think the main issue to define a luxury brand depends on the person doing the defining. For middle or upper middle class, i suppose lexus would be a luxury brand.
For the 1% or above, probably not! Its all semantics and perceptions...
03-06-19, 02:51 PM
#39
drives cars
I don't know how anyone could walk into a Genesis/Hyundai dealer using letters and names and view Genesis as a true luxury brand when they dont offer the cross over vehicles in the hottest selling segments. I don't believe there should be a distinction between luxury or premium. All of them are luxury brands to me.
I think it's a little of A) and a little of B). I actually look forward to going to my Lexus dealership most of the time. Everyone is just really nice, and the facility itself is well-sorted. Spacious waiting area with lots of free food, including fresh fruit and this weird energy-drink-making machine.
Now I will say, I think Lexus really just needs to play catch-up on their tech, especially infotainment, along with performance, to be viewed in the same way as ye old German brands. I think Audi is right up there with BMW and MB, but I think Lexus, Cadillac, and Infiniti (and, perhaps, Volvo) carry a bit less prestige than the Germans. However, most people I know would consider Lexus to be the "sensible" alternative to those due to its reliability.
03-06-19, 03:37 PM
#40
03-06-19, 04:02 PM
#41
Lexus Champion
It's a fair question, but I still don't think it is on the level of Acura and Infiniti, neither of which offer anything close to an LC or LS, not to mention the LX, GS, and GX.
I've owned an Acura and I'd never go back. Basically a Honda dealership with no special treatment, constant small, nagging issues, and a level of refinement that is nowhere near what Lexus offers.
I seriously considered leaving Lexus this year, but just couldn't do it. I doubled down and bought a GS for long term based on my huge satisfaction with my 15 GS. But if Lexus does not come up with a GS replacement, then I see that as a step backward.
I've owned an Acura and I'd never go back. Basically a Honda dealership with no special treatment, constant small, nagging issues, and a level of refinement that is nowhere near what Lexus offers.
I seriously considered leaving Lexus this year, but just couldn't do it. I doubled down and bought a GS for long term based on my huge satisfaction with my 15 GS. But if Lexus does not come up with a GS replacement, then I see that as a step backward.
03-06-19, 04:13 PM
#42
Lexus Champion
Lexus easily breezes past Acura and Infinity on build/fit/finish cachet. But it has lost ground against the German trio. If your flagship doesn't offer a sedan with plug in hybrid options one one side and yet can give you a 600 hp tire shredding monster on the other - you have a problem. It takes a lot of engineering and money to make a 4500 lb sedan handle like it's on rails and still provide a smooth ripple free ride. The Germans do that. And they do it consistently, even with V6s and now inline 6s.
03-06-19, 05:36 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I view Cadillac and Lincoln as luxury brands on equal footing with Mercedes or BMW or Lexus. I do not see how any of the car models from those two brands cannot be cross shopped somehow with others. The Cadillac V series is far closer or on par with AMG or M than Lexus F is. the Navigator or Escalade are far better than any other large SUV made. So it gets complicated.
The Navigator is an excellent product, but its the only excellent product Lincoln sells currently.
03-06-19, 06:40 PM
#44
Lexus Champion
Interesting question for discussion. We talk about full line luxury brands, and we talk about "premium" brands. I don't think many people would disagree that Mercedes, BMW & Audi are full fledged luxury brands. They have a full lineup of cars from entry level to ultra high end, tons of customizations, quality service to round out their ownership experience. "Premium" companies have less high end or customizable models, lower service levels or shared dealerships with mainstream brands, etc. I would put Lincoln, Volvo, Acura, Infiniti, Genesis into that category.
Question is...where does Lexus fit in today? In the past I would argue they were certainly a full fledged luxury brand, but if you look at the lineup today, you have the LS and the LC and the LX that all sell in very small numbers, and then the GX, which is ancient. GS is going away we expect, as may the IS. Everything else are all platform engineered FWD/transverse Toyota models, the RX, NX, UX, ES which make up the VAST majority of their sales. The top end of the range is almost totally unserved. They definitely still have the dealer network and after sales service that one expects from a luxury brand, even perhaps moreso than Mercedes, BMW or Audi depending on the marketplace.
With that said, the connotation of "driving a Lexus" still carries a lot of weight. I was just out of town with three colleagues in my LS, and the LS and Lexus came up multiple times, its clearly something that is still aspirational.
As much as I love Lexus and love my Lexus, I think you can make an argument that they too are now simply a premium brand.
Thoughts?
Question is...where does Lexus fit in today? In the past I would argue they were certainly a full fledged luxury brand, but if you look at the lineup today, you have the LS and the LC and the LX that all sell in very small numbers, and then the GX, which is ancient. GS is going away we expect, as may the IS. Everything else are all platform engineered FWD/transverse Toyota models, the RX, NX, UX, ES which make up the VAST majority of their sales. The top end of the range is almost totally unserved. They definitely still have the dealer network and after sales service that one expects from a luxury brand, even perhaps moreso than Mercedes, BMW or Audi depending on the marketplace.
With that said, the connotation of "driving a Lexus" still carries a lot of weight. I was just out of town with three colleagues in my LS, and the LS and Lexus came up multiple times, its clearly something that is still aspirational.
As much as I love Lexus and love my Lexus, I think you can make an argument that they too are now simply a premium brand.
Thoughts?
I think Lexus is still safely a legit luxury brand; though I definitely agree with what you said about buying a 1998 and 2004 LS and the clout those models had back then that doesn't exist anymore.
Now it's S-Class or nothing (IMO) at least in that segment. Wouldn't think twice about it, either. But your examples of the older LS cars are dead on. And I'm not saying that just because I drive an example.
It is just the times, moving everything to FWD crossover BS blah blah...
Lexus achieved enough in the beginning to cement it's status as a tier 1 luxury car IMO. I do think a Mercedes has a smidgen more cachet. Not any of the other German brands, though.
03-06-19, 07:42 PM
#45
I don't know how anyone could walk into a Genesis/Hyundai dealer using letters and names and view Genesis as a true luxury brand when they dont offer the cross over vehicles in the hottest selling segments. I don't believe there should be a distinction between luxury or premium. All of them are luxury brands to me.