SW17LS

Interesting question for discussion. We talk about full line luxury brands, and we talk about "premium" brands. I don't think many people would disagree that Mercedes, BMW & Audi are full fledged luxury brands. They have a full lineup of cars from entry level to ultra high end, tons of customizations, quality service to round out their ownership experience. "Premium" companies have less high end or customizable models, lower service levels or shared dealerships with mainstream brands, etc. I would put Lincoln, Volvo, Acura, Infiniti, Genesis into that category.

Question is...where does Lexus fit in today? In the past I would argue they were certainly a full fledged luxury brand, but if you look at the lineup today, you have the LS and the LC and the LX that all sell in very small numbers, and then the GX, which is ancient. GS is going away we expect, as may the IS. Everything else are all platform engineered FWD/transverse Toyota models, the RX, NX, UX, ES which make up the VAST majority of their sales. The top end of the range is almost totally unserved. They definitely still have the dealer network and after sales service that one expects from a luxury brand, even perhaps moreso than Mercedes, BMW or Audi depending on the marketplace.

With that said, the connotation of "driving a Lexus" still carries a lot of weight. I was just out of town with three colleagues in my LS, and the LS and Lexus came up multiple times, its clearly something that is still aspirational.

As much as I love Lexus and love my Lexus, I think you can make an argument that they too are now simply a premium brand.

Thoughts?

mmarshall

My thoughts?.....The way Lexus designed and built their vehicles in their first 15 years of existence (1990-2005), I'd pretty much consider them a luxury-brand, though at lower prices than Mercedes or BMW. Since then, IMO, mostly because of changes in the vehicles themselves, they have lost what I would consider luxury-brand status, and could now be considered simply premium or upmarket. One exception.....I'd still rate the LS460, though, as a true luxury sedan. Also, an interesting question would be where to rate the LX570 and Land Cruiser...despite different nameplates, they are essentially the same vehicle, and could (?) be considered either in the upmarket or luxury class.

SW17LS

They dont make the LS460 any longer, so its not part of the equation.

sivikvtec

LexRuger

Lexus is in a weird spot. I would slot them below MB and BMW but above Acura and Infiniti. I think Audi is starting to have the prestige of BMW and MB.

Luxury brands have been watered down so much in the past several years.

MB brought the A-Class to the US, then they have the GLA, CLA. I don't think they deserve the MB title.

Then you have BMW with the 1 series, 2 series, X1, etc.

Toys4RJill

I know exactly how this thread is going to go. 1. Lack of V8 for the flagship 2. Poor V8 for the LC 3. Poor remote touch crap 4. They don't build them as well as they used to blah blah, blah. Note: I have not read the responses as of yet .

Anyways, yes they are 100% a luxury brand. However IMO, they seem to be not making a good enough effort on their top end cars, their US sales for the top end cars are behind expectations. They are also behind in the usability of their infotainment systems (Lexus used to lead the way for ease of use). Lexus is very, very behind in their top end SUVs for the US market. And Lexus needs to lead in the electric realm of cars. The new LS should of offered a full on electric version. Lexus should also offer Lexus plug-in hybrid like they do in the Prius, my husband is driving me freaking crazy about the new Tesla 3 and I see his point.

All that said, from my experience and my immediate family. My parents uncharacteristically traded in their ES (the Lexus bread and butter) very early, they absolutely hated it and they are from a generation that would of remembered Lexus at the start My sister sold her Lexus when she moved to the US and leased a BMW, her Lexus left her stranded and then failed again. I had a Lexus LX470 and a Lexus CT and it was not all that bad and we still have a LX450 but its not really relevant.

Anyways, are you doubting Lexus?

Stroock639

my answer will depend somewhat on what ends up happening with the GS, since if they drop that completely they're basically admitting defeat

and in general i don't think toyota cares as much as it once did about making lexus be truly world class, at least not since the LFA, which i have no complaints about apart from me never having gotten to ride in / drive one

Sulu

If Lexus were to stop selling its large, flagship LS model (as some people seem to be praying for), I would agree that it is no longer a luxury brand. The luxury brands mentioned all have large, aspirational sedans as their top-of-line flagships.

Flagships do not have to sell in great numbers but they have to be there to anchor the brand and provide a model that buyers can aspire to: "When I grow up, I want a Mercedes-Benz S / BMW 7 / Audi A8 / Jaguar XJ / Lexus LS".

Cadillac does not seem to know what should be its flagship sedan. Is it the XTS? Is it the CT6 or some phantom, often-hinted CT6+ (CT8?)?

Lincoln has not had a true flagship since the cancellation of the Town Car. Maybe Lincoln is trying to position the Continental as its new flagship?

What is Infiniti's flagship? Honestly, I no longer know.

Is Acura's flagship the RL / RLX? Did it become lost in the across-the-board renaming of its models?

mmarshall

Yes, I know, but some of them may (?) still be for sale brand new on lots. I haven't formed a final opinion on the 500 yet, since I haven't test-driven it.

Frog98

Just my $.02 since I have had Lexus vehicles since 2002 and recently decided to dip my toe in the German pond. Porsche seems a whole level higher than the other German car companies and dealers. Service is exceptional. All Porsche vehicles are built at what seems the same level of quality. For a loaner car, a base Macan is still pretty nice. My dealer is rarely crowded. BMW has not been as good to me as Lexus. I recently had my BMW in for service, and was told someone would return my call regarding the service several times...nope. They could use some more customer service training. I also much prefer a ES or NX as a loaner as opposed to a 4 series or 2 year old X3. Thusly I traded my BMW M550i for a new 2019 RX 450hL Luxury last week. Should be ready for pickup tomorrow. I feel some relief to be back at the Lexus dealer. Happy to be back in the Lexus family For here on out, it's Lexus or Porsche for me. For me, I am pretty big fan of Lexus "Luxury" and hybrid drivetrains and hope this is where they focus.

Mike728

I think Lexus is a Premium "brand", just like the German's. Pure Luxury brands are reserved for Bentley, Rolls Royce and the likes. Maybe I don't understand the question.

Yes, they have vehicles that are considered "Luxury", but not the brand as a whole.

coolsaber

Back in the day Lexus was the Genesis of luxury, premium nameplate of an economical brand, thanks to immense parts, platform sharing, a lot of FWD vehicles, lack of engine options, lack of safety options, and infotainment.

Today big nameplates like Porsche and Audi immensely platform share with their VW and economical brands so no longer able to disqualify them on platforms/parts.

BMW and MB sell FWD vehicles in large quantites so longer on that either.

Lexus interiors on most vehicles except the GX, are considerably well appointed.

Engines still are stagnant compared to the competition, but seeing the Future drivetrain plans that should be corrected.

Where there was no safety options offered, Lexus came running forward with LSS, of course except in the GX

Infotainment is on point with AA and Carplay launching even if the stock HU is terrible.

I see no immediate reason to put Lexus in the Luxury category nor do I see any reason to disqualify it.

In regards to premium vs luxury, I think pricing has really put an end to that midway section. Acura and Volvo were premium a couple years ago, but now their pricing seems to be mid market luxury, especially Volvo whose fury of product launches have really launched that marque wayyyy high trading spaces with Audi.

SW17LS

I would consider Bentley, Rolls Royce, etc "ultra luxury" cars. Theres definitely a difference between a "luxury car" and a "premium car". If you look at a brand like say, Buick. They aren't a mainstream brand, but they aren't a luxury brand. I would suggest Acura and Infiniti are very clear examples of this also.

The question is, where does Lexus fall? My opinion is the company and the way they do business is definitely a "luxury" brand, but the product line has been neglected to the point where the product is no longer on the same level as what is sold at Mercedes, BMW and Audi.

For instance, I've been directly and indirectly an LS owner for 21 years. When we bought the LS400 new in 1998, the product really held up compared to an S Class or 7 Series. The LS was notably superior in areas and it truly would be a purchase one may choose to make outside of value considerations. The same was true in 2004 when we bought the LS430 new.

Fast forward to 2015 and 2017 when I bought the LS460 and the LS460L, that was no longer the case. Even with the all new LS500, IMHO that car just doesn't present as a peer to what is offered as the S Class, 7 Series and A8.

So while the experience of a Lexus dealer and service has IMPROVED since 1998, the dealers are much grander for instance...the product has notably fallen behind those "luxury" brands.

In order to get back into that realm I think they need to really start addressing that upper end of their lineup. $100,000 is the new $80,000. Lexus does not play in that over $100,000 segment at all.

jrmckinley

Interesting topic and debate. I'd agree with Mike728 that the true luxury brands are more like Bentley, Rolls, Maybach, etc. But I get the gist of what you're asking - has whatever status Lexus started with dipped slightly in the almost 30 years the brand has been around..? Not sure. I distinctly remember seeing and riding in an early 90's LS400 on a test drive (my parents were driving) and just being blown away, even as an early teenager, by the quality. Had never been in something so quiet, so refined, so smooth. Is Lexus slipping or have they made modest improvements while other brands made big jumps and narrowed the gap? What determines a luxury brand now? Is it a huge gap between that brand and their affiliated/owned non-premium brand (Lexus vs. Toyota, Audi vs. VW, etc)?

I have to admit I'm less impressed with the LS460 than I ever was with an LS400. Yet I love the LX570 and feel it has incredible refinement... though not to the level of a Range Rover... As hard as it is to admit, maybe my perception of Lexus has dipped but I'm willing to tolerate it because I love predictability and reliability.

After all, I am currently contemplating a move away from the brand to a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. Wouldn't have done that in the past. Either I'm changing, the brand is changing, the competition is catching up.... or a combination of all 3. Love the thought provoking question though.

SW17LS

I think that in the 90s the LS was a huge improvement over what was a mainstream car. I remember the feeling of driving that LS400 in 1998, it was just so far and away above anything else we had ever had, and my Dad had a Cadillac at the time and had Lincolns, we had nice cars. When you went and drove a 7 Series or S Class, the LS still stood out.

Today, mainstream cars are WAY better. A modern Accord or Camry or Avalon or Maxima is extremely smooth and quiet and refined. So while the LS is certainly better, its not "blow you away" better.

I will say I have driven basically everything. I have never driven a car I felt was "quieter" than my LS460L, nor have I driven a car I think "rides better", but I have driven cars that are as quiet and ride as well. 7 Series, S Class, A8, all very similar in ride and drive today, and mainstream cars are instead of being 75% as nice are now say, 90% as nice. Sadly the LS500 is a notable step behind the LS460L in those areas and thus is compared to its peers also.