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Toyota Cost Cutting, really grinding my gears.

 
Old 02-06-19, 03:49 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
This is a fair response ^^^. Lexus did remove the AC button in the ES as well.
I'm not talking about the "A/C" button, thats been gone for years, I'm talking about the manual mode button. They removed it in the LS500, but not in the ES.

ES:

I'm talking about the button right in the center




LS500 (no button):



I believe the spacer button remove is 100% to save money. They did not remove in the ES but did in the Avalon and most new Toyotas. I would like to know a valid reason as to why they did not remove in the ES? I can't tell if the LS has the spacer.
Its an example of different design and supply houses designing switchgear for Lexus and Toyota. You're assuming they made a conscious choice to remove that spacer for the Avalon but leave it for the ES, but in reality what I think happened here is these switches are no longer designed by the same group for Toyota as they are for Lexus. Its simply that the Toyota designers made a choice in their design that the Lexus designers did not. Lexus' design is totally separate from Toyota now.

One big change you see in Lexus today is their switchgear is no longer the same as Toyotas.
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Old 02-06-19, 03:51 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
This is a fair response ^^^. Lexus did remove the AC button in the ES as well. New UX or LC has none.

I believe the spacer button remove is 100% to save money. They did not remove in the ES but did in the Avalon and most new Toyotas. I would like to know a valid reason as to why they did not remove in the ES? I can't tell if the LS has the spacer.
IS, RC, NX have the physical AC button. Every other Lexus only has it in the menu.

The new ES may share the chassis with the Avalon but to help differentiate it from Toyota's it doesn't share the same parts bin window switch that it has in the past. The new ES is using the RX, GS, NX one. Although for some reason it doesn't have the chrome tips that the ones I mention do.
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Old 02-06-19, 03:58 PM
  #63  
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And as for it being "impossible to hit both windows with the divider" my friend who just bought the ES350 hits both windows all the time. Has the dividers.
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Old 02-06-19, 04:14 PM
  #64  
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What an interesting thread!

I have lots of experience in designing molded plastic parts. The reason for the deletion of that divider could be one of many things. I'd have a hard time casting it as "cost savings" based on mold design or how much material is used, even in large scale.

Some thoughts:

- They could be using a different plastic material now that doesn't "flow" so easily into the mold crevice, making fabrication a challenge.
- It could be that those dividers/tabs would sometimes break in production, so it was better to do away with it and save some rework/scrap costs.
- It could be based on consumer feedback for a desire to hit both switches with one finger, to lower both front windows.
- It could be as simple as it being time to redo the mold and the engineers said "well, there's no real need for that, so let's get rid of it".

As for why Lexus still has it...

- If it was a material flow issue with the molds, the different plastic used in Lexus may not exhibit that issue.
- If it's that tabs would break in production, it could be that Lexus production is in lower numbers, so the motivation to fix it wasn't there, or that the plastic used in the Lexus versions don't break as easily.
-It could be that they haven't had a need to redo the molds so they simply haven't changed it.

So I don't know the reason, but I know there are several possible explanations.
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Old 02-06-19, 04:37 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by JDR76 View Post
What an interesting thread!

I have lots of experience in designing molded plastic parts. The reason for the deletion of that divider could be one of many things. I'd have a hard time casting it as "cost savings" based on mold design or how much material is used, even in large scale.

Some thoughts:

- They could be using a different plastic material now that doesn't "flow" so easily into the mold crevice, making fabrication a challenge.
- It could be that those dividers/tabs would sometimes break in production, so it was better to do away with it and save some rework/scrap costs.
- It could be based on consumer feedback for a desire to hit both switches with one finger, to lower both front windows.
- It could be as simple as it being time to redo the mold and the engineers said "well, there's no real need for that, so let's get rid of it".

As for why Lexus still has it...

- If it was a material flow issue with the molds, the different plastic used in Lexus may not exhibit that issue.
- If it's that tabs would break in production, it could be that Lexus production is in lower numbers, so the motivation to fix it wasn't there, or that the plastic used in the Lexus versions don't break as easily.
-It could be that they haven't had a need to redo the molds so they simply haven't changed it.

So I don't know the reason, but I know there are several possible explanations.
Thanks for the fantastic post. I think its a very interesting discussion

I love Toyota and Lexus, as much as the next person. However, a little critical thought can go a long way. For example, the new Cruise control buttons are not as easy and simple to use as the time tested older method with the lever behind the wheel.
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Old 02-06-19, 04:43 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
And as for it being "impossible to hit both windows with the divider" my friend who just bought the ES350 hits both windows all the time. Has the dividers.

Shouldn't do the system any damage as long as it's not done repeatedly or for long periods of time. The most that it could do (lowering or raising more than one window at once) is run a little more current than usual through the window-regulator, or draw a little more current than usual from the battery (or alternator, if the engine is running). Toyota doesn't use junk-electronics in their vehicles, so it's not likely to burn anything out.
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Old 02-06-19, 04:49 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
Sorry. It did not come to mind until yesterday, Although I noticed it myself in my parents Avalon as well as I remember him telling me.



Toyota Rav4 has no divider, same with now Corolla Hatch. My guess it is both a design and cost cutting measure.
I looked at the window controls in my 3-Series on my drive home--no dividers (and I've never accidentally hit the passenger window in 4 years of ownership--back window, though, yes). I don't think it's cost-cutting, though, because in the F30 3-Series mid cycle refresh, they added chrome accents to the window controls. So it would seem at odds to add cost to a part that went thru cost-cuts. \_(ツ)_/
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Old 02-06-19, 04:51 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
Many vehicles have the window switches close together, on the same panel, with the power-mirror, seat-memory, power-door-locks, and other switches/buttons. We can argue about it all afternoon, but IMO, look-to-verify never hurts.
Suit yourself. I haven't needed to look down at a power window switch in decades.
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Old 02-06-19, 05:26 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
Suit yourself. I haven't needed to look down at a power window switch in decades.

Like I replied above, however, hitting two buttons at once probably won't do the system any harm, especially with the good-quality electronics that Toyota uses. I used to do it myself, many decades ago, in high school, when I worked part-time in a car wash. Back then, only luxury cars had power windows, and, of course, they all had to be up before the water started spraying.
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Old 02-06-19, 07:51 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by JDR76 View Post
What an interesting thread!

I have lots of experience in designing molded plastic parts. The reason for the deletion of that divider could be one of many things. I'd have a hard time casting it as "cost savings" based on mold design or how much material is used, even in large scale.
I believe its a little bit of both cost cutting, and then some design element which I am not really convinced. I looked at my 4Runner tonight as I went for me (awesome me right) and there is quite a bit of molding and plastic in the design. Removing the inner part goes under the button quite a bit. It seems very odd that Toyota would remove them on their Toyota products yet keep them on their Lexus models.

Here is the UX.



The Toyota models keep the divider for the power locks, but not the windows.

Here is my 4Runner. There is a lot of plastic under the buttons.





Thanks for the post. I appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

Last edited by LexsCTJill; 02-06-19 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 02-06-19, 07:52 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
Its an example of different design and supply houses designing switchgear for Lexus and Toyota. Y
Do you really believe the Toyota engineer in his little cubicle is sitting there and only working on only Toyota parts? Then there is a Lexus engineer working on only Lexus parts?
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Old 02-06-19, 07:58 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
Suit yourself. I haven't needed to look down at a power window switch in decades.
If you look at the UX pic I posted, there is nubby on top of the drivers button that helps feel where the switch is while in the dark.

Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
I looked at the window controls in my 3-Series on my drive home--no dividers (and I've never accidentally hit the passenger window in 4 years of ownership--back window, though, yes). I don't think it's cost-cutting, though, because in the F30 3-Series mid cycle refresh, they added chrome accents to the window controls. So it would seem at odds to add cost to a part that went thru cost-cuts. \_(ツ)_/
Thanks, I appreciate you letting me know what they do with BMW. I would be interested to know if older BMW models had the divider.
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Old 02-06-19, 08:04 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
I love Toyota and Lexus, as much as the next person. However, a little critical thought can go a long way. For example, the new Cruise control buttons are not as easy and simple to use as the time tested older method with the lever behind the wheel.
Yet most of the reviews I've watched of the new models with the cruise control on the wheel praise that they finally did away with the stalk that they all hated.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
Do you really believe the Toyota engineer in his little cubicle is sitting there and only working on only Toyota parts? Then there is a Lexus engineer working on only Lexus parts?
Absolutely. The design teams are totally separate now, they made an announcement some years ago that over time they would continue to separate the design for components for Lexus and Toyota. If you look at the new cars, the switchgear is very different whereas before it was always the same.
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Old 02-06-19, 08:06 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post
Yet most of the reviews I've watched of the new models with the cruise control on the wheel praise that they finally did away with the stalk that they all hated.
The reviewers very rarely own the cars they drive, Toyota or Lexus owners opinions like myself, or yourself are far more important . Why would the stalk not be as good as the steering wheel controls?
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Old 02-06-19, 08:09 PM
  #75  
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I don’t mind the stalk but wish it was illuminated in my Lexus like it is in my Toyota.
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