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Toyota Cost Cutting, really grinding my gears.

 
Old 02-06-19, 02:26 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
I would tend to agree with this. I can't say that I know the cost of that piece of plastic, but I can see some design engineer pushing for a "sleeker look" in eliminating that divider..
So then why would you leave spacer in the door lock/unlock part and continue using the spacer in the ES350 which is shared with the Avalon?
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Old 02-06-19, 02:26 PM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
I agree. No offence to Marshall, (I consider him a friend of mine), but he has an ax to grind with Toyota. That being said, the new ES is light years better than the outgoing ES which was better than the 07 ES. The new Avalon, Camry are all better than their previous models. The new Camry hatch is excellent. Not sure about Rav4 and the LS500 took a bit of step back in the cost cutting department whereas the LX got better.
I think the ES is a good example. The 13 ES had many areas in the interior where it was a step back from the 12 ES. They replaced the soft touch lower doors and dash with hard touch plastic, they replaced the sides of the console which were soft touch plastic with hard touch plastic. Outside they removed most of the exterior trim and went from welded chrome exhaust tips to clip on tips. Some of that was fixed in the 2016 refresh. On the 19 ES though there isn't anywhere that I could see where they took a step back from the 18 ES, every single place is an upgrade or maintains the level of quality. Thats a huge change from two previous generations that both had stark retreats from their predecessors in terms of quality.

I haven't seen a Rav4 yet, but the previous Rav4 was terrible inside, I don't see how the new one cant be an improvement. As for the LS500, the only place where I see any cost cutting compared to mine is the power seat belt anchor. Everywhere else is a clear upgrade or maintenance in material quality from my LS460L.

I looked at all the competition at the car park, every car make has the divider. New TNGA Toyota, they do not. There is reason as to why the divider was there. Lexus has them.
My Chrysler doesn't have any such divider, nor did my Jeeps. In any event if that little divider is the tradeoff for all the ways those interiors are better, I'll take it.

Here are the window switches from an S550...no divider:


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Old 02-06-19, 02:26 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
Well, two things, Jill. First, I agree with you that Toyota/Lexus has been steadily cheapening their interiors, trim, and sheet metal for years...that is nothing new. (I myself have posted in Car Chat about it many times). Second, though, with or without a switch-spacer, one must still watch what switch he or she is actually pulling up with their finger.....it only takes a couple of seconds or so with your eye off the road, so it's not like texting or fumbling with a cell phone. Most switches in today's cars are lit at night, to help make it easier in the dark.

Speaking of cell phones, BTW, I got a new one today (first new one in a LONG time)....will do a thread in Clubhouse about it.
Sorry--this is just flat-out wrong.

In this day and age, any power window button design that cannot be operated by feel is just an all-out failure. There's absolutely no excuse for any design that would require anyone to have to look to check which power window button they are touching.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:29 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
So then why would you leave spacer in the door lock/unlock part and continue using the spacer in the ES350 which is shared with the Avalon?
I don't know--they are different style buttons (windows are press/pull)?

But I can turn the question back to the OP--if it's truly an issue of cost cutting, why leave THAT spacer?
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Old 02-06-19, 02:29 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
There's absolutely no excuse for any design that would require anyone to have to look to check which power window button they are touching.
That is the basis of the argument in this situation.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:30 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by SW17LS View Post



My Chrysler doesn't have any such divider, nor did my Jeeps. In any event if that little divider is the tradeoff for all the ways those interiors are better, I'll take it.

Here are the window switches from an S550...no divider:


Thanks for posting this info.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:32 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post

But I can turn the question back to the OP--if it's truly an issue of cost cutting, why leave THAT spacer?
Are you saying its not a cost cutting thing? or it is?
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Old 02-06-19, 02:33 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
That is the basis of the argument in this situation.
Sure, if the issue is widespread, and not user error. Do you feel if you drove that car as a DD, you'd get used to the buttons and make sure you were feeling the button so you pressed it more to the left side so as not to accidentally also press the passenger button?

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
Are you saying its not a cost cutting thing? or it is?
My WAG is that it's not cost-cutting. If it was, I would think they would remove all dividers, not some dividers. But who knows, really?
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Old 02-06-19, 02:34 PM
  #24  
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Nice picture addition @SW17LS, this to me just shows its a design thing.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:35 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
Sure, if the issue is widespread, and not user error. Do you feel if you drove that car as a DD, you'd get used to the buttons and make sure you were feeling the button so you pressed it more to the left side so as not to accidentally also press the passenger button?
I am assuming you would get used to it. However, it is impossible (you cannot in any way) open both windows accidentally with the spacer set up. Almost every car I checked out on the lot had the space. I am assuming you could get used to it, but there must of been a reason to continue using a spacer part for the ES vs the Avalon (and other Toyota's)...that would have to be cost cutting.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:39 PM
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^^ if one had some really poofy gloves, I'd bet you could roll both down with a spacer.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:41 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
Sorry--this is just flat-out wrong.

In this day and age, any power window button design that cannot be operated by feel is just an all-out failure. There's absolutely no excuse for any design that would require anyone to have to look to check which power window button they are touching.
I wasn't commenting necessarily on the need to verify what switch your fingers were grabbing...only on the common sense of doing so.

And I learned that, not only from driving experience, but in the cockpit as a pilot. Some older General-Aviation planes used to have the flap-position lever shaped like, and not very far from, the landing-gear lever. So, after touchdown on the runway, when you want to raise the flaps, to kill the residual lift on the wings and allow the plane to settle down on its wheels for braking-traction, some inadvertent or careless pilots accidentally raised the landing-gear instead (fortunately, I never did this, as I was always careful and used checklists). Needless to say, that kind of pilot-error could be VERY costly to the airplane, if not totalling it. Later planes took more care in designing safer, more foolproof controls.
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Old 02-06-19, 02:43 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill View Post
I am assuming you would get used to it. However, it is impossible (you cannot in any way) open both windows accidentally with the spacer set up. Almost every car I checked out on the lot had the space. I am assuming you could get used to it, but there must of been a reason to continue using a spacer part for the ES vs the Avalon (and other Toyota's)...that would have to be cost cutting.
I wish you started this thread 2 days ago, because I was at the Philly auto show yesterday, and spent considerable time in the new RAV4, and I definitely would have looked for this (and checked every other Toyota and Lexus model there).

Cost cutting or no, Toyota is definitely not going to do an across the board replacement of that part mid-model life. But it looks from this on-line pic of the new RAV4, that there's a similar setup no divider between driver/passenger side window buttons:

https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/interior/10

Which, of course, still doesn't answer the question of cost-cutting or design intent....
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Old 02-06-19, 02:46 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall View Post
I wasn't commenting necessarily on the need to verify what switch your fingers were grabbing...only on the common sense of doing so.

And I learned that, not only from driving experience, but in the cockpit as a pilot. Some older General-Aviation planes used to have the flap-position lever shaped like, and not very far from, the landing-gear lever. So, after touchdown on the runway, when you want to raise the flaps, to kill the residual lift on the wings and allow the plane to settle down on its wheels for braking-traction, some inadvertent or careless pilots accidentally raised the landing-gear instead (fortunately, I never did this, as I was always careful and used checklists). Needless to say, that kind of pilot-error could be VERY costly to the airplane, if not totalling it. Later planes took more care in designing safer, more foolproof controls.
And I'm talking about the lack of any common sense to have to look down at window switches....which really has little or no direct comparison to airplane cockpit controls.....
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Old 02-06-19, 02:48 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
I wish you started this thread 2 days ago, because I was at the Philly auto show yesterday, and spent considerable time in the new RAV4, and I definitely would have looked for this (and checked every other Toyota and Lexus model there).
.
Sorry. It did not come to mind until yesterday, Although I noticed it myself in my parents Avalon as well as I remember him telling me.

Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
Cost cutting or no, Toyota is definitely not going to do an across the board replacement of that part mid-model life. But it looks from this on-line pic of the new RAV4, that there's a similar setup no divider between driver/passenger side window buttons:

https://www.toyota.com/rav4/photo-gallery/interior/10

Which, of course, still doesn't answer the question of cost-cutting or design intent....
Toyota Rav4 has no divider, same with now Corolla Hatch. My guess it is both a design and cost cutting measure.

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