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Perhaps convoluted is a better term. Some people don't think it's a bad design, but taller people all find it frustrating. For me the upper portion of the cluster, where the blinker indicators are, is blocked by the steering wheel, so I lose visual way to tell whether my turn signals are on, as well as tactile way when the switch returns to center.
Luckily on my 2018 M2 its no longer the case, they went back to traditional switch.
Dang you are lucky to have a M2! I wonder if it is sort of like the 1M....uncommon enough that the value doesn't really go down. I have seen way more M3 and M4's on the road than M2's.....my coworker was trying to buy one and he said forget it based on the pricing. And he never got that '15 M3 stick that he brought to work one day on an extended test drive, I told him pull the trigger...
iirc the IS, RC, and NX have a style where you push the turn signal down but it returns to the middle position while still doing the turn signal. The RX, GX, LX, LC, LS, UX, ES all 'stick' when you push them down. I suspect that because the three former cars are aimed at the European competition they did that to mimic those cars so if they get a conquest sale the owner will feel at home when operating the signal stock. Also the same reason these cars have a push style fuel door rather than a button in the interior that releases the fuel door.
Agreed. Now that I am used to them, I understand why they are designed this way. It's so that they make less noise. Normally, when you make a turn, the stalk will automatically jump back into position, with a clicking sound. Not so with these - they don't move at all.
I prefer them to have the switches make noise jumping back into position so I wouldn't leave my blinkers on like an idiot. I use my hands as a tactile to check to see if the switch is back in the middle position. I don't look at the dashboard because I'm focusing on looking at the street.
Funny how this is mentioned. I actually prefer this style (where it always return to center and doesn't stick up or down when the turn signal or wipers are on) and surprised that Lexus didn't roll this out to all of their vehicles (not even on the ux or the new ES have these and they have brand new stalks.) We have the GS, IS, RC, and RX (13 doesn't have them nor any RX model) and we quickly adapted to the new style as it feels premium if you ask me! I don't like the traditional style. Only the GS, IS, and RC have these though. None of the other vehicles have them not even the NX and that's what I plan on trading my IS for next. I wonder if I can swap it out for this style when I get the NX. Seems to have the same stalks.
I visited the Lexus dealer today and I came out disappointed knowing that some of the new Lexus coupes/sedans have those "BMW" style turn signal switch that sets itself in the middle rather than being held up/down while operating. I really hate these turn signals because they confuse the hell out of me when driving. I noticed the new Lexus SUV models don't have this.
Is it possible to swap these "BMW" style turn signal switches from the ones in the new Lexus SUV models? Are the parts compatible?
Bad news--BMW 3-Series changed to traditional-style turn signals stalks with he '17 MY.
Funny I am driving a 2018 330i today and was thinking dang I hate the turn signals and wiper controls, as well as the cruise. BMW totally went mainstream. I know this has been kicked around before and I can understand wanting the controls without detents in a Lexus,
Imho the way that things were done before, were almost along the lines of say a motorcycle. I'm not on the scene but do people complain about the way a gearshift works on a bike, or where the front brake placement is compared to the rear? Do we always have to make things so simple that people don't have to think when they drive (meaning the current way at BMW)? lol
edit but I do like the XM311 which none of our cars can get (don't go up that high)
There is nothing more retarded than turn signals that return to center. Like I said before, BMW abandoned these in 2018 models after many customers complaints. I actually made a big thread on BMW forum complaining about this, and many agreed.
I'm on my 5th consecutive BMW in the past 5 years, all of them with the return-to-middle turn signal. I have to admit, at first I hated it. I wasn't used to it. 20+ years of driving has accustomed me to the traditional signal stalk. However, I've come to really appreciate how much BETTER and MORE INTUITIVE it is than the traditional stalk.
Lets say you signal right to go right, but the turn wasn't enough to disengage the signal:
1) In the traditional stalk, you have to unlock the stalk by pressing down on it. This mimics the act of signaling left. This is essentially counter-intuitive because I don't want to go left, I want to go straight. More on this later.
There are also instances where you might press down too hard or too much and now the car is signaling left unintentionally. How many times have you seen a car blink ONCE left after it has just made a right? This is because the stalk had traveled far enough the opposite direction to signal the other way—left.
2) In the BMW return-to-middle (RTM) stalk, to cancel a right signal, you mimic the act of turning right. This is more intuitive if you think of the stalk as a TOGGLE. Pressing up toggles the right blinker on. Pressing it again turns it off. Compared to the traditional stalk method, you don't have to make a motion that mimics signaling left at all. There is no chance of accidentally signaling left by disengaging the right signal.
Other advantages to the RTM stalk:
You merely have to TAP it to disengage the signal. You do not have to push it past a point of resistance, so there is not only less effort, but less movement. It's more efficient.
Also, if you want to immediately switch from a right signal to a left signal, you can do so with less movement. To signal right to left, you don't have to go past the point of resistance THEN down to left, you just press down. A smaller movement with less resistance.
The RTM stalk also doesn't do that loud and cheap sounding "clank" when the stalk returns to center.
When I drive my wife's car I now feel like the traditional stalk is a hassle. Too much effort and movement for a simple signal. However, I don't think it's a big deal. While I enjoy the simplicity of the RTM stalk, I can understand that we are used to the traditional one. There was really nothing that wrong with it, and the RTM has a learning curve. I understand why BMW went back, but I wholeheartedly believe that if every car adopted the RTM stalk and never went back, almost everyone would grow to appreciate it as the better system once they get used to it.
I'm on my 5th consecutive BMW in the past 5 years, all of them with the return-to-middle turn signal. I have to admit, at first I hated it. I wasn't used to it. 20+ years of driving has accustomed me to the traditional signal stalk. However, I've come to really appreciate how much BETTER and MORE INTUITIVE it is than the traditional stalk.
Lets say you signal right to go right, but the turn wasn't enough to disengage the signal:
1) In the traditional stalk, you have to unlock the stalk by pressing down on it. This mimics the act of signaling left. This is essentially counter-intuitive because I don't want to go left, I want to go straight. More on this later.
There are also instances where you might press down too hard or too much and now the car is signaling left unintentionally. How many times have you seen a car blink ONCE left after it has just made a right? This is because the stalk had traveled far enough the opposite direction to signal the other way—left.
2) In the BMW return-to-middle (RTM) stalk, to cancel a right signal, you mimic the act of turning right. This is more intuitive if you think of the stalk as a TOGGLE. Pressing up toggles the right blinker on. Pressing it again turns it off. Compared to the traditional stalk method, you don't have to make a motion that mimics signaling left at all. There is no chance of accidentally signaling left by disengaging the right signal.
Other advantages to the RTM stalk:
You merely have to TAP it to disengage the signal. You do not have to push it past a point of resistance, so there is not only less effort, but less movement. It's more efficient.
Also, if you want to immediately switch from a right signal to a left signal, you can do so with less movement. To signal right to left, you don't have to go past the point of resistance THEN down to left, you just press down. A smaller movement with less resistance.
The RTM stalk also doesn't do that loud and cheap sounding "clank" when the stalk returns to center.
When I drive my wife's car I now feel like the traditional stalk is a hassle. Too much effort and movement for a simple signal. However, I don't think it's a big deal. While I enjoy the simplicity of the RTM stalk, I can understand that we are used to the traditional one. There was really nothing that wrong with it, and the RTM has a learning curve. I understand why BMW went back, but I wholeheartedly believe that if every car adopted the RTM stalk and never went back, almost everyone would grow to appreciate it as the better system once they get used to it.
For starters, I love the RTM stalk in my GS. With BMW's implementation, I can understand frustration from those who aren't use to it as repeating the same action to turn on and off the same signal is the opposite of what most are used to. In Lexus cars with the RTM stalk, it functions exactly like a traditional stalk, just digitally. So if you lift the stalk up to turn on the right turn signal, to disable it, it just takes a slight downwards tap (as if you were using the triple flash lane change function to the left).
Personally I feel like this approach feels more luxurious, modern & is more unique. Like you said, it's really nice not having to hear the "clunk" once the turn signal self-cancels. But not only that, in regards to BMW, I've always found it to be one of the special quirks of owning a BMW, so I'm sad to see they're switching back to the traditional style.
I'm on my 5th consecutive BMW in the past 5 years, all of them with the return-to-middle turn signal. I have to admit, at first I hated it. I wasn't used to it. 20+ years of driving has accustomed me to the traditional signal stalk. However, I've come to really appreciate how much BETTER and MORE INTUITIVE it is than the traditional stalk.
Lets say you signal right to go right, but the turn wasn't enough to disengage the signal:
1) In the traditional stalk, you have to unlock the stalk by pressing down on it. This mimics the act of signaling left. This is essentially counter-intuitive because I don't want to go left, I want to go straight. More on this later.
There are also instances where you might press down too hard or too much and now the car is signaling left unintentionally. How many times have you seen a car blink ONCE left after it has just made a right? This is because the stalk had traveled far enough the opposite direction to signal the other way—left.
2) In the BMW return-to-middle (RTM) stalk, to cancel a right signal, you mimic the act of turning right. This is more intuitive if you think of the stalk as a TOGGLE. Pressing up toggles the right blinker on. Pressing it again turns it off. Compared to the traditional stalk method, you don't have to make a motion that mimics signaling left at all. There is no chance of accidentally signaling left by disengaging the right signal.
Other advantages to the RTM stalk:
You merely have to TAP it to disengage the signal. You do not have to push it past a point of resistance, so there is not only less effort, but less movement. It's more efficient.
Also, if you want to immediately switch from a right signal to a left signal, you can do so with less movement. To signal right to left, you don't have to go past the point of resistance THEN down to left, you just press down. A smaller movement with less resistance.
The RTM stalk also doesn't do that loud and cheap sounding "clank" when the stalk returns to center.
When I drive my wife's car I now feel like the traditional stalk is a hassle. Too much effort and movement for a simple signal. However, I don't think it's a big deal. While I enjoy the simplicity of the RTM stalk, I can understand that we are used to the traditional one. There was really nothing that wrong with it, and the RTM has a learning curve. I understand why BMW went back, but I wholeheartedly believe that if every car adopted the RTM stalk and never went back, almost everyone would grow to appreciate it as the better system once they get used to it.
I've been driving BMWs since 2007 or so, and I always hated the BMW style switch. Luckily my 2018 M2 has the new switch which no longer returns to center, but whenever I drive my wifes or my daughters car, the switch annoys me. It probably wouldn't be such a big deal to me, but I am tall, and for me the upper part of the instrument cluster in most cars is blocked by the steering wheel, so I can't see the indicators in the cluster, and with RTM switch there is no tactile way to tell if my blinkers are on.
I've been driving BMWs since 2007 or so, and I always hated the BMW style switch. Luckily my 2018 M2 has the new switch which no longer returns to center, but whenever I drive my wifes or my daughters car, the switch annoys me. It probably wouldn't be such a big deal to me, but I am tall, and for me the upper part of the instrument cluster in most cars is blocked by the steering wheel, so I can't see the indicators in the cluster, and with RTM switch there is no tactile way to tell if my blinkers are on.
I probably didn't notice it over the last few years on the loaners, but this time (Wednesday with the 330i loaner) I distinctly tried the wiper switch and found it had gone mainstream too--I sincerely like the wiper switch having no detent, just like the turn signals. Oh, and the cruise control went totally mainstream and onto the wheel just like a Chevy Malibu. That I did notice that a few years ago.
Dunno how to quite explain but imho the old way was aesthetic (the stalks have to be designed to be in the perfect spot as they are not going to move from their positions when in use)--everything returns to center, never off center. Kind of like shifting a bike. Again I'm not on the scene and don't own one, are bikes automatics today lol? One would think so as society wants to do a lot more while driving and automate the driving portion of time spent in a vehicle. But when I rode bikes I always liked the way they got shifted, just made sense I guess.
Also I was surprised at how many M cars were on the lot for sale, including one M2. I assumed M2s were not "available" and sold for over list. I think it's the economy...another strange thing--this guy dropped off a 7 Hybrid, and was given a X1 loaner? lol
edit p.s. I totally get that if such a product were offered as an aftermarket for Lexus, I doubt the product would sell. But it would be nice to have such a conversion at least to me and apparently the OP
p.p.s. me too, got my BMW in 12/06. I missed the opportunity because the car I really wanted badly was the 2001 330Ci--it was a good miss since I don't change cars often and I think the E92 is in the sweet spot for me
Having had Lexus vehicles with this new switch (the GS) and the old switches (everything else), I think once you get used to the new switch its not a big deal, I never found it to be.
The turn signals have a fairly load click click while they flash, so you know the turn signal is on. My older Lexus cars made basically no sound and the only way to know was the flash.
11-15-18, 05:50 AM
