Megafast13

The 2002 ES had one of the highest quality interiors I have ever experienced. The fit and finish on exterior parts was incredible too. I still have it in mint condition. Completely disagree.

The materials have certainly changed on the new models, but are not cheap by any means. Just a completely different feel and experience than the plush cushy pillow days.

sears1234

Your theory is only correct for old Nickel metal battery, more motor can generate more electricity.
lithium-ion battery has much much rapid recharging rate then Nickel metal battery, even one motor has better recharging efficiency than two ones on Toyota / Lexus.

Toyota's design only try to compensate its low-end battery, if Toyota use lithium-ion battery and two motor to regenrate electricity, it will be better than others.

Toys4RJill

I am having a hard time believing that the Toyota hybrids are superior to Mercedes-Benz plug in hybrid tech. Toyota has the hybrid tech with their Prius (topic seems to be ignored and avoided) but mysteriously this tech is not available to Lexus or other Toyota models. Furthermore, Toyota seems to de-tune all of their gas components of their hybrid system compared to the same engine without hybrid. Why? If you had a short commute to work, it seems a disappointing that you cannot drive to work on electric plug in charge only in your Lexus like you can in MB or BMW products or the Prius Plug in.

jwong77

You forgot to address the additional complexity, weight and costs issue.

Sulu

That argument would only work if the recharge rate was much greater than the discharge rate -- provide a great amount of charge very quickly but then discharge and use that charge very slowly -- but that is not the case. Yes, Li-Ion batteries have a faster charge rate than NiMH batteries, but they also have a faster discharge rate.

sears1234

Why do you bring discharge here, all discharge should translate into power to move the car. I really think i just waste my time here.

Sulu

If you want long EV-only range, you need a very large, very heavy battery. And that leads to the problem: A large battery takes up a lot of space and a lot of weight, but that internal combustion engine also takes up space and weight. If the Prius Prime PHV has less EV-only range than the German brand plug-in hybrids, that is because Toyota deliberately chose a smaller battery to balance with more cargo space and less weight hanging behind the rear axle.

Consider this example of someone who drives 50km (30miles) each way to work (total 100km / 60mile commute). Assume that person drives a plug-in hybrid that has an EV-only range of about 50km but can only charge at home (cannot charge at work).

Overnight, the driver charges up to full (50km range) charge. He drives to work on battery only. The car carries the weight of the battery but also drags along the weight of the internal combustion engine, which is not used during the commute to work. The engine is a drag on the car.

At the end of the day, he drives home on the internal combustion engine only (the battery was completely discharged during the drive to work). The car drags along the weight of that large, heavy battery, which is not used during the commute home. The battery is a drag on the car.

There is a lot of unused (i.e. wasted) weight dragged along one way or the other.

Toys4RJill

Sulu

The second motor is additional complexity and weight if you did not design the car to be a hybrid but instead retrofitted a normal car with a normal 6- or 8-speed automatic transmission by merely adding an electric motor to the transmission.

But if you start with a fresh sheet of paper and re-design that transmission to be a simple hybrid-specific power-split device transmission (as Toyota and Ford did), the transmission can be quite compact.

Or think completely outside of the box -- as Honda did for its latest 2-motor hybrid system, which is completely different from its early Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system -- and do away with the transmission (and its complex system of gears) altogether, leaving only what the hybrid car needs: An engine, a generator and clutch, a drive motor.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

if they're so great, why do hybrids and electrics still only account for about 2% of car sales?

ArmyofOne

It did. Mine is nearly mint too. Mine is an early run ES (Built 10/02) so its (very nearly) 17 years old. It is arguably one of the most comfortable cars I have ever driven. It's not the best on gas, but its fine for what it is. I have driven it all over the country from TX and I can do 15-16 hours in it and arrive at my destination without feeling like I need to be peeled out of the seat. In fact, if not for it being dangerous from being sleepy, I would be willing to bet I could drive it from here in Northeast TX, to Los Angeles CA non-stop when we go in a few weeks. Personally, sacrificing a bit of fuel economy for comfort is ok, and I have yet to find a better car to pile miles on than my 2002 ES. 177k and counting.

user 720202

I very recently purchased a 2018 LS 500 and have only driven it for 5,000 miles (which included three trips of 1,500 miles each). On the last trip, my wife and I headed north from Texas and stopped for an overnight stay at a hotel in Topeka, Kansas. I checked in and went back to the parking lot to get our luggage, but i couldn't get the trunk to open. We tried everything we could think of: buttons, fobs, aux keys, jiggling, banging, cussing, etc. Nothing worked. Our suitcases, toiletries, and medicines were all inside, including what I probably needed most, the Owner's Manual and my computer. My best guess at the time was something like our garment bag or a luggage tag had jammed the latch when the trunk was closed. So I tried calling Lexus over the assistance lines asking for advice. No one had any idea of what to try, except to take it to the closest Lexus dealer. I called Destination Assist through our nav system and asked for directions to a Lexus dealership. I got a name and number, but by now, it was early evening, so no one answered the phone. The next morning, we got the nav directions to the "dealership," which turned out to be a tiny used-car lot in a run-down area of Topeka, which had a dozen "beaters" in a fenced-in lot, and a two-bay repair shop in back. After explaining our problem to the two mechanics inside, they looked at us like we were nuts. They offered no suggestions, but sure wanted to look over (and inside) our brand-new car. After the "wow's" and "how much did it cost?," we called Destination Assist again and told them about the place, suggesting they remove it from their dealer list. We were then advised that the next closest dealership was in Omaha, Nebraska, about 200 miles away. We called their number, got the receptionist, and asked to speak to someone in the service department, hoping they could tell us what to do. Unfortunately, the maintenance shop had just closed for the day. We explained our problem to the receptionist, who said she would leave a message with our name and cell-phone number. She was terrific. Next morning, we headed for Omaha, arriving just before noon, and were met in the parking lot by a young technician who said, "You must be the people with the trunk that won't open." He then asked me to let him sit in the driver's seat, he opened the glove department, pushed the Valet Parking control and the trunk release button, and the trunk lid opened immediately. Did I feel dumb!!! The Valet Parking feature was not new to me since I had used in in our previous car, an '08 LS 600hL. But, after 500 miles of driving the previous day, and in my tired and frustrated state-of-mind, I just didn't think of it.
That's a long story about a minor problem, but my bottom line concern is this: Shouldn't someone on the Destination Assist line know where actual Lexus dealerships are located? Shouldn't someone at the customer-assistance site have a basic understanding of the most commonly used features of their cars? Maybe they could keep some Owner's Manuals of the various models somewhere nearby. All I got from at least three different people was, "I'm sorry, but I can't help you," or "Maybe your Lexus dealer could help."
In 20/20 hindsight, I could have waited for the Omaha dealership to open and then talked to a technician. I could have tried a Toyota dealership for help. My memory shouldn't have failed me after reading the entire Owner's Manual from cover-to-cover just a few weeks earlier. But I didn't.
So, for now, my rear-seat passengers have to put up with some very thick manuals laying under their feet. Sorry.

peteharvey

So they can get better fuel economy.
The GS450h Mk 1 had little fuel savings, but it was an absolute rocketship, with a larger battery pack and a larger electric motor that reduced trunk capacity by some tremendous 40%.


Very true.

This is only partly true, because the ICE is not absolutely useless on the way to work or back, but the ICE can actually recharge the battery pack on the way to & from work in EV only mode.
The vehicle can be powered exclusively by EV, but the ICE can act as a generator.

By definition, a hybrid and plug-in hybrid only differs in the availability of a power point!

Think of it this way.
Imagine the hybrid and the PHEV were identical cars, with identical ICE, identical battery packs, and identical electric motors; what then would be the difference between a hybrid and a PHEV?
Then, they'd be virtually identical; the only difference would be that the PHEV can be recharged via a power point.

Now, a slightly different scenario.
We compare two almost identical hybrid vehicles, but the second hybrid vehicle has a much larger battery pack, and a much larger electric motor.
What then would be the difference between these two motor vehicles?
The much larger battery pack and electric motor has much longer range & more explosive acceleration similar to the first generation Lexus GS450h.
It would also be a heavier vehicle, with a much more cramped trunk - aka 1st gen Lexus GS450h again.

I hope this helps comparisons between hybrids versus the PHEV's which theoretically don't have to, but in practise do generally have much larger batteries and larger electric motors.
Put aside the advantages of the power point for one moment, and just imagine we are comparing two hybrids with very differently sized battery packs and concomitantly very differently sized electric motors.

Thus, the PHEV wins for performance and economy, but the hybrid wins with a battery pack-fuel tank sandwich under the rear seats for superior trunk space, superior weight/handling, and the ability to have a space saving spare tire under the trunk, rather than using run flats or living with the anxiety of a tire repair kit.


The other advantage of Plug-in is that they can be [as opposed to always are] topped-up from the power point while parked for just $3.45/100 miles for electricity, as opposed to say $13.52/100 miles for gasoline.

The bigger the battery pack and electric motor, the longer the EV range, and the more explosive the acceleration.
However, plug-ins do have a downside including the size and weight of that huge battery pack under the trunk - which means compromised trunk space, compromised agility, and no spare tire, hence either uncomfortable run flats, or at least an anxious tire repair kit.
The other downside as Mr Sulu mentioned is that Plug-ins have to carry the weight of the ICE such that it will never be as quick as the Tesla Model S full blown EV, though in return, plug-ins don't have to be recharged at the power point, and can be just refilled at the gas station - which is more expensive, but more convenient.


Back to thread topic.
Thus overall, plug-ins have their pros and cons, and ups and downs.
Presently, there simply is no perfect and no genuinely superior engine.
Later on, when solid state batteries eventuate, solid state EV's will come to the fore front.

However, in the mean time, we are in this terrible "intermediate" period when there is so many different engine choices, and this is an absolute headache for Toyota Motor Corporation especially in terms of cost efficiency.
TMC likes its world leading US$200 billion in equity, and TMC doesn't care much for Daimler AG's paltry US$69 billion in equity, hence that's why presently, TMC has its hands on a little bit of all the technologies available including: diesels, atmospheric, small capacity turbos, hybrids, plug-ins, hydrogen fuel cell, Lion EV, and solid state EV development.

Presently in this horribly inefficient & expensive intermediate period, because TMC has their hands on a little bit of everything - TMC specialises in nothing.
If TMC cuts back on bandwidth, then they can specialise more. Right?

This is why some people can be disappointed when they don't see TMC with a huge German-like commitment to small capacity turbos eg V6 & V8 TT's, followed by a huge commitment to plug-in PHEV's - because TMC atmospheric 1.5/2.0/2.5/3.5's, and hybrids with battery packs very efficiently sandwiched between the rear seat base & fuel tank for a capacious trunk & excellent dynamics - are TMC technologies still hanging around...
.

Kira X

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Kira X

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