Winter tires
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,208
Likes: 220
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
as a poor teen, I drove through a whole Michigan winter in a 70 mgb. It had bald tires al the way around. The right rear tire was as smooth as a race slick. On one occasion on a back country road I was drift busting through drifts that were over the hood. I never got stuck that winter. I wasn't involved in a accident. Luckily nothing happened where I had to stop quicker than anticipated. Just because I had no issues doesn't mean winter tires wouldn't have been better, and safer. Not that winter tires existed then. Skill kept me from getting stuck. Luck is why an accident didn't happen ( someone doing something where I couldn't stop or avoid them) . A awd/4x4 means you can drive through deeper wetter snow easier. It doesn't stop or turn any better on a slick road. Tires are the only thing that makes any car or truck stop and turn when it's slick out. The worst conditions I've driven i certainly wasn't deep snow. Ice and black ice are the worst conditions. While that awd helps get going on hills it is still hard to stop and turn. Once I tried winter tires and saw how much less the abs had to work, that's the proof. That's all I needed to get me on board. Fact is deep snow you can stop pretty well with any tires. The displacement of snow slows you quickly. Those miner snow events where the snow drifts and leaves a layer of ice is a bigger deal. People drive to fast , and A/S tires suck under those conditions compared to winter tires. Nobody's arguing that a outback can go through deeper snow than a is250 on winter tires. We are saying, that the is250 on winter tires will stop and turn better when cold slick conditions. That can be ice, cold rain, or some snow. When the outback is just on A/S tires. Now that outback will accelerate quicker because all four tire are being driven. That still doesn't equate to better stopping. As both cars still have four wheel brakes. If tires didn't matter for traction we would all be running on Sunny brand tires because they are less expensive. Me I'll stick with summer tires for summer, and winter tires for winter. I'll pass on tires that are a jack of all trades , but can't master any of them. I'm not that silly kid I once was.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,300
Likes: 4
From: RightHere
In the DC area the average climate is what I call very mild for a winter. From Wikipedia.
I too am a fan of Subarus too and I believe you when you say that the Outback you drove had no problem with a DC blizzard, which can pile up a lot of snow. I used to work at a dealership many, many years ago, only briefly. But even the Outback I used as a dealer shuttle was amazing on its all seasons. But you can take it to the bank that a vehicle of any sort, with any kind of tech is going to do far, far better in a extreme winter environment compared to driving on all seasons. That means for anybody north of you, it's a no brainer.
Spring and fall are mild to warm, while winter is chilly with annual snowfall averaging 15.5 inches (39 cm). Winter temperatures average around 38 °F (3.3 °C) from mid-December to mid-February.
Why I did say, though, and stand by it, is that my Outback was superb with all-seasons. Whether it would have been even better with winter tires is a moot point.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 67,911
Likes: 3,839
From: Maryland
Exactly, very mild here which is why I don’t run winter tires. We’re as likely to have temps around 50 as we are 30, and even during a huge snowstorm we rarely see temps below the high 20s.
Havinn driven the same car on the same tires in a snowstorm here at 30 degrees and in a snowstorm in Albany at 2 degrees, the difference in grip on allseason tires is substantial.
Havinn driven the same car on the same tires in a snowstorm here at 30 degrees and in a snowstorm in Albany at 2 degrees, the difference in grip on allseason tires is substantial.
CL Community Team
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,299
Likes: 580
From: IL
Huge believer in winter tires, hoping to get my Pirelli Sottozero 3s ordered today. Was going to try to make the old Blizzak LM60s last one more season (tread depth is iffy), but the boy has Lacrosse practice (indoors) 17 miles away from home 3 days/week, so the wife nixed both that option, or taking her AWD RX350, both for safety reasons.
Having grown up in the midwest driving exclusively RWD pickup trucks for 5 of so of my earliest years, I'm a VERY good winter driver. Unfortunately, on those platforms (with wide all-season tires), that means remaining just barely in control, and being able to drive extended distances at high degrees of yaw that would terrify most people. My record is probably something like 300 yds at a 60 degree tilt from the direction of travel.
So just about anything is an improvement over that.
That said, the difference in cold weather traction between the very best AS tires and a mediocre to poor (or worn) winter tire is dramatic. If you bring top-performing winter tires into the mix, there simply is no comparison to be made. Having driven my RWD BMW with 500+ lbft of torque and 3-season old Blizzaks back to back in the same storm as my wife's AWD RX350 on brand-new AS Michelins, the BMW was simply unflappable and surefooted, while the Lexus constantly wanted to step out and the TC cut in repeatedly. Yes, I got to my destination without incident in both cases. But the AWD/AS trip was far more dramatic than it needed to be, and the margin of safety was much lower. I've also driven my dad's former Subaru Impreza in the snow on all-seasons, and it likewise could not hold a candle to my BMW on winters. As if to put the bow on top, he would still have that car today were it not totaled in a winter accident where he was unable to stop in time.
We're planning on getting rid of the RX, which is why we haven't invested in a second set of tires. But whatever we replace it with will have a dedicated set of winters from year one, AWD or no.
Having grown up in the midwest driving exclusively RWD pickup trucks for 5 of so of my earliest years, I'm a VERY good winter driver. Unfortunately, on those platforms (with wide all-season tires), that means remaining just barely in control, and being able to drive extended distances at high degrees of yaw that would terrify most people. My record is probably something like 300 yds at a 60 degree tilt from the direction of travel.
So just about anything is an improvement over that.That said, the difference in cold weather traction between the very best AS tires and a mediocre to poor (or worn) winter tire is dramatic. If you bring top-performing winter tires into the mix, there simply is no comparison to be made. Having driven my RWD BMW with 500+ lbft of torque and 3-season old Blizzaks back to back in the same storm as my wife's AWD RX350 on brand-new AS Michelins, the BMW was simply unflappable and surefooted, while the Lexus constantly wanted to step out and the TC cut in repeatedly. Yes, I got to my destination without incident in both cases. But the AWD/AS trip was far more dramatic than it needed to be, and the margin of safety was much lower. I've also driven my dad's former Subaru Impreza in the snow on all-seasons, and it likewise could not hold a candle to my BMW on winters. As if to put the bow on top, he would still have that car today were it not totaled in a winter accident where he was unable to stop in time.
We're planning on getting rid of the RX, which is why we haven't invested in a second set of tires. But whatever we replace it with will have a dedicated set of winters from year one, AWD or no.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,208
Likes: 220
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I'll agree on the temperature difference. Snow at 20-30 degrees in this area is quite common (occasionally at 10-20 degrees, if a strong enough cold high-pressure system is parked in a position to feed Arctic air down the East Coast as a storm is approaching. But snow at 0-10 degrees, or below zero,in this region, is rare, though temperatures themselves, in the dry air behind a storm, can plummet.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,560
Likes: 389
From: PA
It boggles my mind that some snows are still not that good. I put 4 Xice Xi3's on my LS430, and they are so loud, I thought the car needed a new carrier bearing or a new rear diff. When I put my summers back on, I was like, huh? The sound is totally gone.
The moral of the story for me, is stick with tires made in Germany (these were made in Thailand)...
The moral of the story for me, is stick with tires made in Germany (these were made in Thailand)...
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,208
Likes: 220
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,560
Likes: 389
From: PA
I have owned multiple AWD/4WD vehicles that were/are excellent in the snow. If I lived in the north or in Canada, I would still rather have a 2WD car on winter tires. If I lived in those climates I would put winter tires on my AWD cars. I wouldn’t even consider not doing so.
Have you driven a modern car on modern winter tires in a cold climate? Clearly not. If you had you would realize how ridiculous the statement that an AWD Subaru doesn’t need them in that climate is. Like I said my brother in law lives in that climate and has an AWD Subaru, he runs winter tires.
Have you driven a modern car on modern winter tires in a cold climate? Clearly not. If you had you would realize how ridiculous the statement that an AWD Subaru doesn’t need them in that climate is. Like I said my brother in law lives in that climate and has an AWD Subaru, he runs winter tires.
My observation is that often when there is an accident in the winter, at least in the northeast, it's an AWD SUV that is involved. We could be like Québec and require 4 snows on all vehicles, but that wouldn't go over well here...or, we could use common sense as they do in Ontario...
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,208
Likes: 220
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,560
Likes: 389
From: PA
That's because a lot of people are duped when they buy these SUVs. No matter what kind of rubber you have on it, they think (or fall for the image) that these are magic-wand machines that allow you to drive in snow like you were on dry pavement. Well, of course......it doesn't work that way.
)In Toronto, you see nice cars (a Buick Enclave in the office came to mind) with black rusted steel rims and snows.....I felt as if Canadians were not so vain as to have fancy rims with their snows...jmo.....
edit p.s. with my 335i, I have 18x8 (did not do -1 like I did with the LS430) ASA rims that cost me $79 each--yet I have gotten more compliments on those rims than with the stock 189's! I'm like, um, those are my snows with skinny 225's....even the valets at the dealership...too bad ASAs are no longer made in S Korea, I think they were good rims back then...
Last edited by Johnhav430; Nov 7, 2017 at 07:20 AM.
CL Community Team
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,299
Likes: 580
From: IL
Shame on me, but when my 335i was 3 y.o., I took it out in 9" of snow I (I no longer want to drive it with salt on the roads it's a killer). RWD with 4 snows (Goodyear Ultragrips made in Germany),. No problems whatsoever. The grip was not a problem. Would a 335xi with 4 snows fare better? Yes. Would a 335xi with all seasons fare better? Doubt it. But at some point it's not going to be the grip but the low ground clearance that would cause issues.
And it's good to point out the ground clearance. That is the cause of the one occasion I was unable to stop, despite having relatively new Blizzaks. I was coming to a light where each lane was two distinct tire tracks, with hard pack in between. At one point, the snow under the chassis actually lifted all 4 tires off the pavement. Very scary, but thankfully did not hit anyone. I regained traction at a low point in the pack and continued home without incident. That only happened once, during "snowmageddon" a couple of years ago.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,560
Likes: 389
From: PA
It would be sad if RWD went the way of the manual transmission with clutch. One day we'll all be buying AWD with automatics. We already have one in our family, let's try to keep it to that lol as we do have 2 RWDs but the LS430 of course is an auto...and don't get me wrong, AWD is a benefit, and if possible every family should have one for foul weather, just don't treat it as invincibility...
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