Will Lexus ever go diesel in the US?
09-30-17, 07:23 PM
#31
^^ This. As much as I get annoyed that large SUVs in the U.S. have hardly any turbodiesel options this is where things are going. Indeed it is a case of too little too late.
We should be thankful that Toyota is at least finally embracing performance gasoline turbocharged engines again for the time being.
Ultimately SUVs like this Bollinger are the answer for things Lexus would never make no matter what propulsion source is in them. But Toyota has in the FJ70. It's also among the possible answers to anyone who's ever been frustrated that diesel FJ70's were never sold in the U.S. A 360hp 4WD electric off-roader.
Apply that to any kind of future SUV marketed in any way and it won't be very different in general (other than that this example below is for diehard off-road enthusiasts and certainly not anything that would evoke the Lexus brand ethos). EV passenger cars will not get the insanely low "fuel economy" they do with today's low density batteries forever.
Give it time and the cost will fall.
We should be thankful that Toyota is at least finally embracing performance gasoline turbocharged engines again for the time being.
Ultimately SUVs like this Bollinger are the answer for things Lexus would never make no matter what propulsion source is in them. But Toyota has in the FJ70. It's also among the possible answers to anyone who's ever been frustrated that diesel FJ70's were never sold in the U.S. A 360hp 4WD electric off-roader.
Apply that to any kind of future SUV marketed in any way and it won't be very different in general (other than that this example below is for diehard off-road enthusiasts and certainly not anything that would evoke the Lexus brand ethos). EV passenger cars will not get the insanely low "fuel economy" they do with today's low density batteries forever.
Give it time and the cost will fall.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 09-30-17 at 07:30 PM.
09-30-17, 07:25 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
10-01-17, 02:11 AM
#33
Good question.
10-01-17, 04:13 AM
#34
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus did have the previous gen IS200d and IS220d for the European market but they've been replaced by the IS300h. They have the last laugh because diesels are being phased out or banned altogether in Europe whereas hybrids and BEVs are in. I love big BMW diesels in their big sedans for the torque and rorty sound but Lexus/Toyota diesels don't come anywhere near in terms of refinement.
I wouldn't bother with an ES diesel either. The next ES with the new Camry hybrid drivetrain could probably hit 45 mpg highway without the hassles of a turbo, DPF and urea refills for emissions control. I'm already getting 45 mpg highway on my current ES300h, albeit with a lighter foot.
I wouldn't bother with an ES diesel either. The next ES with the new Camry hybrid drivetrain could probably hit 45 mpg highway without the hassles of a turbo, DPF and urea refills for emissions control. I'm already getting 45 mpg highway on my current ES300h, albeit with a lighter foot.
10-01-17, 04:20 AM
#35
Lexus Test Driver
A truck or bus diesel engine pollutes more in total but per unit of weight carried, it pollutes less than a passenger car diesel. Short and medium range electric buses are making big inroads and EVs for urban deliveries already exist. Battery density isn't enough for long range trucking at the moment but gas-electric hybrids or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could replace diesels in that space.
Pick off the low hanging fruit first while waiting for cutting-edge technology to mature. I love them mixed metaphors...
10-01-17, 05:11 AM
#36
Lexus did have the previous gen IS200d and IS220d for the European market but they've been replaced by the IS300h. They have the last laugh because diesels are being phased out or banned altogether in Europe whereas hybrids and BEVs are in. I love big BMW diesels in their big sedans for the torque and rorty sound but Lexus/Toyota diesels don't come anywhere near in terms of refinement.
I wouldn't bother with an ES diesel either. The next ES with the new Camry hybrid drivetrain could probably hit 45 mpg highway without the hassles of a turbo, DPF and urea refills for emissions control. I'm already getting 45 mpg highway on my current ES300h, albeit with a lighter foot.
I wouldn't bother with an ES diesel either. The next ES with the new Camry hybrid drivetrain could probably hit 45 mpg highway without the hassles of a turbo, DPF and urea refills for emissions control. I'm already getting 45 mpg highway on my current ES300h, albeit with a lighter foot.
10-01-17, 06:32 AM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
You seem almost offended by my statement. I never said they weren't. However, it is my opinion that for a regular (not high performance) passenger cars, SUVs, and Trucks other than HD ones, Diesel should be an option on most (if not all) of them. They pollute less, are more efficient, and more powerful than gasoline engines when compared side by side. That is an indisputable, proven fact in the industry.
As an example (because its what I know), the 3.0L EcoDiesel offered in Ram 1500's is coupled to an 8 speed transmission and 3.55 final drive gearing, and can tow 9,980lbs. It also achieves 28-29 REAL WORLD highway mpg, in a 5500lb pickup (unloaded, of course). The EcoDiesel has 240 horsepower and 420 lb-ft of torque. It spreads that torque evenly across the powerband. from about 900rpm all the way to 4300.
The 5.7L Hemi also offered in the Ram 1500 is gas-powered (89 octane at that). It has MDS (Multi-displacement-system) that allows 4 cylinders to shut down on the highway and in flowing steady traffic. It can tow 10,000lbs plus, but it needs a 3:92 final drive to do it, even when mated to the same 8-speed automatic. The Hemi has 395hp and 410 ft-lbs of torque, that peak at 5200rpm. The powerband in the Hemi is from 4400-6200rpm. It gets you about 22mpg on the highway with 3.21 gears, 20 with 3.55, and about 18 with 3.92.
^this is all assuming everything else on the trucks is equal, except the engine and gears. The diesel can haul almost the same amount of weight behind it, with less gearing and less HP.
I understand that diesel's cost more to produce...but only barely. They aren't much more expensive to make than gas engines. Nobody here has said the gas engines weren't "very very good." Just that a diesel option would be nice. I know most people wouldn't, but I would buy a diesel ES (and pay a premium for it) before I bought an ES300h. I have never been a fan of hybrids in any form, I don't like the way they drive, I don't like the way they feel (or rather dont). An ES300d would almost certainly outperform the ES350 in both MPG and in acceleration, TQ #'s, etc. Not sure why that's such a bad thing?
.
As an example (because its what I know), the 3.0L EcoDiesel offered in Ram 1500's is coupled to an 8 speed transmission and 3.55 final drive gearing, and can tow 9,980lbs. It also achieves 28-29 REAL WORLD highway mpg, in a 5500lb pickup (unloaded, of course). The EcoDiesel has 240 horsepower and 420 lb-ft of torque. It spreads that torque evenly across the powerband. from about 900rpm all the way to 4300.
The 5.7L Hemi also offered in the Ram 1500 is gas-powered (89 octane at that). It has MDS (Multi-displacement-system) that allows 4 cylinders to shut down on the highway and in flowing steady traffic. It can tow 10,000lbs plus, but it needs a 3:92 final drive to do it, even when mated to the same 8-speed automatic. The Hemi has 395hp and 410 ft-lbs of torque, that peak at 5200rpm. The powerband in the Hemi is from 4400-6200rpm. It gets you about 22mpg on the highway with 3.21 gears, 20 with 3.55, and about 18 with 3.92.
^this is all assuming everything else on the trucks is equal, except the engine and gears. The diesel can haul almost the same amount of weight behind it, with less gearing and less HP.
I understand that diesel's cost more to produce...but only barely. They aren't much more expensive to make than gas engines. Nobody here has said the gas engines weren't "very very good." Just that a diesel option would be nice. I know most people wouldn't, but I would buy a diesel ES (and pay a premium for it) before I bought an ES300h. I have never been a fan of hybrids in any form, I don't like the way they drive, I don't like the way they feel (or rather dont). An ES300d would almost certainly outperform the ES350 in both MPG and in acceleration, TQ #'s, etc. Not sure why that's such a bad thing?
.
As an example (because its what I know), the 3.0L EcoDiesel offered in Ram 1500's is coupled to an 8 speed transmission and 3.55 final drive gearing, and can tow 9,980lbs. It also achieves 28-29 REAL WORLD highway mpg, in a 5500lb pickup (unloaded, of course). The EcoDiesel has 240 horsepower and 420 lb-ft of torque. It spreads that torque evenly across the powerband. from about 900rpm all the way to 4300.
The 5.7L Hemi also offered in the Ram 1500 is gas-powered (89 octane at that). It has MDS (Multi-displacement-system) that allows 4 cylinders to shut down on the highway and in flowing steady traffic. It can tow 10,000lbs plus, but it needs a 3:92 final drive to do it, even when mated to the same 8-speed automatic. The Hemi has 395hp and 410 ft-lbs of torque, that peak at 5200rpm. The powerband in the Hemi is from 4400-6200rpm. It gets you about 22mpg on the highway with 3.21 gears, 20 with 3.55, and about 18 with 3.92.
.
I have no doubt the RAM diesel is great for towing everyday and everyday hauling. But in the big picture, the Hemi Ram is just so much more appealing for most of the population. This applies to almost all of the gas vs diesel offering in the US.
http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-revi...-vs-ecodiesel/
10-01-17, 06:36 AM
#38
Dysfunctional Veteran
Thread Starter
No alternatives, probably? The roads must roll, as Heinlein said.
A truck or bus diesel engine pollutes more in total but per unit of weight carried, it pollutes less than a passenger car diesel. Short and medium range electric buses are making big inroads and EVs for urban deliveries already exist. Battery density isn't enough for long range trucking at the moment but gas-electric hybrids or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could replace diesels in that space.
Pick off the low hanging fruit first while waiting for cutting-edge technology to mature. I love them mixed metaphors...
A truck or bus diesel engine pollutes more in total but per unit of weight carried, it pollutes less than a passenger car diesel. Short and medium range electric buses are making big inroads and EVs for urban deliveries already exist. Battery density isn't enough for long range trucking at the moment but gas-electric hybrids or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could replace diesels in that space.
Pick off the low hanging fruit first while waiting for cutting-edge technology to mature. I love them mixed metaphors...
In any case, the aftertreatment systems are expensive, and expensive to repair (they break down CONSTANTLY), but if they ever get it perfected, then they will work great in fleet applications. They just can't be made small enough to work efficiently in a smaller car.
It is unfortunate that diesels are going the way of the do-do. I myself have driven a Jetta TDI wagon, and almost bought it. It was an outstanding car to drive. I just couldn't make the leap of faith to a german car.
10-01-17, 08:17 AM
#39
Lexus Champion
No alternatives, probably? The roads must roll, as Heinlein said.
A truck or bus diesel engine pollutes more in total but per unit of weight carried, it pollutes less than a passenger car diesel. Short and medium range electric buses are making big inroads and EVs for urban deliveries already exist. Battery density isn't enough for long range trucking at the moment but gas-electric hybrids or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could replace diesels in that space.
Pick off the low hanging fruit first while waiting for cutting-edge technology to mature. I love them mixed metaphors...
A truck or bus diesel engine pollutes more in total but per unit of weight carried, it pollutes less than a passenger car diesel. Short and medium range electric buses are making big inroads and EVs for urban deliveries already exist. Battery density isn't enough for long range trucking at the moment but gas-electric hybrids or hydrogen fuel cell vehicles could replace diesels in that space.
Pick off the low hanging fruit first while waiting for cutting-edge technology to mature. I love them mixed metaphors...
- There is more than one way to measure efficiency, not just how much fuel is burned for every unit of distance travelled. For commercial vehicles, including buses, large trucks and passenger aircraft, efficiency is measured in accordance with the purpose of the vehicle. So, for example, for buses (and passenger aircraft), it is measured in terms of how much fuel is burned for each passenger carried over some distance. In terms of the number of passengers that can be carried over a certain distance, buses (and aircraft) are more efficient than the passenger car.
- Commercial vehicles are better maintained than the average passenger vehicle so the emissions equipment on a bus or truck is better maintained and operating at peak efficiency than the average passenger vehicle.
- Implementing emissions controls on a larger, commercial diesel engine may be easier and have a greater effect than emissions controls on smaller, consumer vehicle engines.
- New, state-of-the-art and expensive emissions technology is easier to sell to commercial fleets than the average consumer. Again, as an example, new, state-of-the-art hybrid-electric and battery-electric buses are being bought by large urban centres but this expensive technology, because of high sale prices, is not of interest to the average consumer.
10-01-17, 08:28 AM
#40
Lexus Champion
The main reason we see so few consumer diesels coming out of Japan is because of decisions made back in the early 1990s that were the reverse of what happened in Europe.
In the early 1990s, Japan brought in emissions standards that lowered the limits of nitrogen oxide emissions, which had a great effect on diesels. About the same time, tax changes made diesel-powered cars more expensive. That dropped demand for diesel-powered consumer cars and automakers responded by investing less in diesels and more in gasoline engines (including gasoline-electric hybrids). While the European automakers continued to invest in diesel and diesel emission controls, Japan did not.
This is the reason why we see so few diesels (and poorly-performing diesels) coming out of Japan.
In the early 1990s, Japan brought in emissions standards that lowered the limits of nitrogen oxide emissions, which had a great effect on diesels. About the same time, tax changes made diesel-powered cars more expensive. That dropped demand for diesel-powered consumer cars and automakers responded by investing less in diesels and more in gasoline engines (including gasoline-electric hybrids). While the European automakers continued to invest in diesel and diesel emission controls, Japan did not.
This is the reason why we see so few diesels (and poorly-performing diesels) coming out of Japan.
10-01-17, 09:41 AM
#41
Lexus Test Driver
The main reason we see so few consumer diesels coming out of Japan is because of decisions made back in the early 1990s that were the reverse of what happened in Europe.
In the early 1990s, Japan brought in emissions standards that lowered the limits of nitrogen oxide emissions, which had a great effect on diesels. About the same time, tax changes made diesel-powered cars more expensive. That dropped demand for diesel-powered consumer cars and automakers responded by investing less in diesels and more in gasoline engines (including gasoline-electric hybrids). While the European automakers continued to invest in diesel and diesel emission controls, Japan did not.
This is the reason why we see so few diesels (and poorly-performing diesels) coming out of Japan.
In the early 1990s, Japan brought in emissions standards that lowered the limits of nitrogen oxide emissions, which had a great effect on diesels. About the same time, tax changes made diesel-powered cars more expensive. That dropped demand for diesel-powered consumer cars and automakers responded by investing less in diesels and more in gasoline engines (including gasoline-electric hybrids). While the European automakers continued to invest in diesel and diesel emission controls, Japan did not.
This is the reason why we see so few diesels (and poorly-performing diesels) coming out of Japan.
The Europeans favored CO2 emissions for whatever reasons while strangely forgetting that smog could also hang over large cities like Paris and London in the summer. They're not ignoring NOx now though, we could see diesel passenger cars kicked out from major city centers within a decade.
10-01-17, 10:46 AM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
https://www.isuzucv.com/en/nseries/diesel_specs
10-01-17, 12:52 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
The only comparable Toyota diesel that I know that comes close to a gaser model is the 4.5 diesel Toyota uses in their LC200 model. It compares well on all performance levels and exceed the 4.6 on some. But there is still a huge premium. Factor in the 5.7 USA model would cost significantly less, it shows why diesel is a very hard sell to US customers.
I would argue that in most parts of the world, a diesel Toyota or car makes more sense. Just not in North America.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-01-17 at 01:07 PM.
10-01-17, 01:17 PM
#44
Dysfunctional Veteran
Thread Starter
Not offended at all. I just want to make sure you provide info for both sides of the gas vs diesel argument. A few things. Diesels absolutely cost more to make and cost more to buy. The evidence is everywhere in the MSPR.
If you look up the stats. A high priced Limited Ram 5.7 and a 3.0 diesel both have the same 6900lb tow capacity. The 5.7 is either 3.21 or 3.92 in the Ram. The 3.0 diesel is fixed at 3.55. The premium to have the 3.0 diesel is $3120 which is what I have saying for so long about diesel, people do not want to pay more. North American consumers like power and performance, its is what sells in North America. The 5.7 RAM is a V8 Hemi rated 395 HP the 3.0 Diesel at 155 hp LESS. To pay more for less, is just not going to happen.
I have no doubt the RAM diesel is great for towing everyday and everyday hauling. But in the big picture, the Hemi Ram is just so much more appealing for most of the population. This applies to almost all of the gas vs diesel offering in the US.
http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-revi...-vs-ecodiesel/
If you look up the stats. A high priced Limited Ram 5.7 and a 3.0 diesel both have the same 6900lb tow capacity. The 5.7 is either 3.21 or 3.92 in the Ram. The 3.0 diesel is fixed at 3.55. The premium to have the 3.0 diesel is $3120 which is what I have saying for so long about diesel, people do not want to pay more. North American consumers like power and performance, its is what sells in North America. The 5.7 RAM is a V8 Hemi rated 395 HP the 3.0 Diesel at 155 hp LESS. To pay more for less, is just not going to happen.
I have no doubt the RAM diesel is great for towing everyday and everyday hauling. But in the big picture, the Hemi Ram is just so much more appealing for most of the population. This applies to almost all of the gas vs diesel offering in the US.
http://www.trucktrend.com/truck-revi...-vs-ecodiesel/
The Ram 1500 Limited Hemi with 3.92 gear set has a towing capacity of 10,320lbs.
The Ram 1500 Limited Diesel with a 3.92 has a towing capacity of 8,710. So it is a bit less than the Hemi, but it will be much more efficient both when towing and not. You can absolutely get a 3.92 limited slip with the diesel. The damn diesel gets 29mpg hwy. What other full size truck can do that?
And, less HP does not equal less power. Its how the engine uses it that matters. And you get the same amount of TQ out of the diesel in half the engine size. That is the point here.
And no, it doesn't cost that much more to produce. Car/Truck manufacturers put a premium on them because they can make more money. They cost next to nothing extra when FCA (or any other co) buys the engine vs. the gas ones. Now, if you are talking big diesels, that is a whole different argument.
So in the end, you pay your $3,120 premium (using Ram as an example) and you get more...
More MPG
More Longevity (diesels last much longer)
More torque out of less engine
slightly higher maintenance costs
More resale value
You also get less:
Less CO2
Less breakdowns
Less HP
Less long term repair expense
So it really is just a matter of which consumer wants what option. Which brings me back to the original question...
If I want a diesel because it will work well for me, why is there not even one offered? I promise you if I could get a Diesel LX SUV in a late model, I would own it tomorrow.
10-01-17, 01:29 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
You aren't getting less. And those stats are off. 6900lbs is incorrect. https://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/
The Ram 1500 Limited Hemi with 3.92 gear set has a towing capacity of 10,320lbs.
The Ram 1500 Limited Diesel with a 3.92 has a towing capacity of 8,710. So it is a bit less than the Hemi, but it will be much more efficient both when towing and not. You can absolutely get a 3.92 limited slip with the diesel. The damn diesel gets 29mpg hwy. What other full size truck can do that?
And, less HP does not equal less power. Its how the engine uses it that matters. And you get the same amount of TQ out of the diesel in half the engine size. That is the point here.
And no, it doesn't cost that much more to produce. Car/Truck manufacturers put a premium on them because they can make more money. They cost next to nothing extra when FCA (or any other co) buys the engine vs. the gas ones. Now, if you are talking big diesels, that is a whole different argument.
So in the end, you pay your $3,120 premium (using Ram as an example) and you get more...
More MPG
More Longevity (diesels last much longer)
More torque out of less engine
slightly higher maintenance costs
More resale value
You also get less:
Less CO2
Less breakdowns
Less HP
Less long term repair expense
So it really is just a matter of which consumer wants what option. Which brings me back to the original question...
If I want a diesel because it will work well for me, why is there not even one offered? I promise you if I could get a Diesel LX SUV in a late model, I would own it tomorrow.
The Ram 1500 Limited Hemi with 3.92 gear set has a towing capacity of 10,320lbs.
The Ram 1500 Limited Diesel with a 3.92 has a towing capacity of 8,710. So it is a bit less than the Hemi, but it will be much more efficient both when towing and not. You can absolutely get a 3.92 limited slip with the diesel. The damn diesel gets 29mpg hwy. What other full size truck can do that?
And, less HP does not equal less power. Its how the engine uses it that matters. And you get the same amount of TQ out of the diesel in half the engine size. That is the point here.
And no, it doesn't cost that much more to produce. Car/Truck manufacturers put a premium on them because they can make more money. They cost next to nothing extra when FCA (or any other co) buys the engine vs. the gas ones. Now, if you are talking big diesels, that is a whole different argument.
So in the end, you pay your $3,120 premium (using Ram as an example) and you get more...
More MPG
More Longevity (diesels last much longer)
More torque out of less engine
slightly higher maintenance costs
More resale value
You also get less:
Less CO2
Less breakdowns
Less HP
Less long term repair expense
So it really is just a matter of which consumer wants what option. Which brings me back to the original question...
If I want a diesel because it will work well for me, why is there not even one offered? I promise you if I could get a Diesel LX SUV in a late model, I would own it tomorrow.
Here is the best post I have read:
"i was on the same boat,
bought a hemi saved myself like $7k in the process
do realize you pay a huge premium for that that for me:
A: i do not tow
B: i wanted to lift my truck and still get good mpg
C: i really wanted a diesel due to my area having diesel cheaper then gas, is not a big surprise
D: I wanted to brag and say my ram gets 28+ mpg yada yada yada
then i crunched the #'s
the premium required me to drive the truck for over 125k miles just to break even on the extra costs up front
the ecodiesel has higher maintenance costs
the ecodiesel has a longer warmup time
the ecodiesel drinks DEF 150% more then the manual says (more costs again)
i dont plan on owning a vehicle for over 100k, basically a 3-5 year turn around and ill trade it in towards my next truck
if you test drove either one, the hemi wins in pure grin factor
in the end i felt like i saved myself big $ by going hemi instead of after thinking it out and looking at it, instead of just falling for the salespitch hype of "best mpg in class"
but if you tow a lot, id get a 2500, there was a long time and a good reason why a diesel was dropped from a 1/2 ton lineup......
oh and fyi the hemi does have a higher tow rating then the ecodiesel LOL"
http://www.ramforum.com/f44/eco_diesel_vs_hemi-65993/