as long as the ES is around, and other competition is so strong, i think the GS is doomed, unless a new one is a much stronger offering (creating demand), or they differentiate is more from the ES, so its value is clearer. dealers have no interest or time to work hard to sell the GS when they can sell the ES all day long to 10 times as many customers.

 

Absolutely correct. Honestly, I think most enthusiasts and those on here underestimate what Americans want. The ES hits the sweet spot of what middle of the road America wants, FWD, spacious, nice interiors, interesting design, no need for premium fuel or turbo I4 base engines etc etc. The ES should increase its price for the next gen. The top end Camry is now an eye popping $37.5K. I think you will see the ES copy what Lincoln has done with its Continental pricing.

 

I don't think fwd is a factor either way to middle of the road buyers. As for i4turbos, mb, bmw, audi have done it to gain fuel economy. If lexus can keep with the v6 more power to them it's a wonderful engine for an entry luxury car.

 

I actually think FWD is a huge selling point for a large portion of the car buying public. For those who don't see (or care about) the performance value in RWD, FWD is preferred. The perception (real or otherwise) with FWD is that you get better inclimate weather traction, with a larger interior, no driveline hump, and typically lower cost to purchase.

 

To JDR's point, prior to my income really going up, I was all in for the FWD value and the roominess that the packaging allowed.

With so many vehicles based on FWD platforms, tough to argue against the point.

When you get into bigger cars, FWD suffers from a steering radius penalty (entertaining to see my neighbors park their Avalon in our tight garages and limited space between the building and the garages themselves.

 

hey we can argue about anything here, but seriously, fwd is widely available because it's cheaper to make and in most of the world where cars are smaller, it does offer better cargo space. But as you say, turning circle suffers. I'm driving a rented ford mondeo (think big fusion hatchback) right now, and the turning radius is bigger than the queen mary. Sucks.

Oh and the well to do here do still all drive mercedes, bmw, audi (i know, fwd based), range rover, etc.

 

Sometimes, car magazines, reviewers, enthusiasts and people on forums sometimes forget that most people just want a good car to sit...in traffic and go from A to B. Not many people want to feel every single pothole or expansion joint on the highway. The GS is a great car no doubt, but probably not what most people wants. Even if the ES goes away, the GS will not be a huge success at its starting price point and size and the features it offers. At the Es's starting price, the germans have compacts so its a value proposition.

 

I don't think buyers are preferring fwd over rwd which is why the ES sells so well compared to the GS. I think it all comes down mainly to price, the ES is reasonably priced and you get a lot of car for the money with a 6 cylinder standard. Most buyers just don't see the premium of the GS worth it when the ES is just as or more roomy, has just as many features, power/acceleration is pretty similar, etc.

If snow traction was a big a issue I think mid west and northern state buyers would demand AWD in the ES and a GS AWD would make more sense to them. I think it just boils down to the price premium of the GS over the ES. RWD and a slightly nicer interior and the looks/stance mainly matters to enthusiasts like me and others here but there likely is not enough of us out there to generate big sales volume for the Lexus GS as it is.

In the past the 2nd Gen GS looked much nicer then the ES, had a nicer interior, and much more performance, it was seen as a pretty worthy upgrade and worth the price upgrade but through the generations the cars have gotten much closer, if Lexus is going to charge such a high premium for the GS it is going to need to be seen as a significant step up where it comes to interior, luxury, engines, power, looks, and performance. I think they should have made the luxury package standard in the GS, and the F sport maybe a $2000
premium over those packages being a $6000 price premium over a already high premium for the GS compared to the ES.

It would be a huge mistake to just give up on the GS, they need a RWD mid level competitor.

 

most ES owners don't even know if their cars are fwd or rwd, nor do they care. it is all just about price and value. with that in mind, most people won't consider ES and there are little incentives for dealerships / salesmen to even try pushing the GS when they can sell the ES without much talking

 

I was going to say the same thing. Majority of them don't even know the advantages/disadvantages of FWD vs RWD. When I helped my coworker shop for the previous generation ES, she never once asked about which wheel drove the car. It came down to price, mpg, noise level and interior space.

 

I think you meant GS there but get your points and agree and Gsteg too.

 

That's a ridiculous statement. Most people in the Midwest at least know the difference between the two. The minority who may not know would be young drivers that haven't experienced how much "fun" it can be to drive a RWD car in the snow.

 

If Lexus had a Long Term strategy for Lexus to compete with MB, they would have got rid of ES long ago.
A robust midsize RWD platform engineered the right way could have created the following:
Competitive GS line
Midsize coupe / convertible / 4door coupe
Midsize SUV / SUV coupe

Instead they have ES and RX and the rest are forgotten models with tiny sales #s.
Thats part of the reason they have engines that are not updated for 10years. It costs a lot of money to develop and you cant put a RWD powertrain in FWD ES and RX, whats the point of coming out with new engine for RWD if it sells in such small #s. Economies of scale are not there.

 

you've obviously not met many middle aged female realtors who drive es's and wouldn't know if it had side wheel drive.

 

Not true at all. A lot of people go for SUVs because of the security of AWD/4WD. We can thank Subaru for putting that thought into people's mindset. Honestly, they should offer AWD as an option on the ES and be done with it. Like waaay back in the late 80's, the Camry had AWD called the All-Trac so why can't it be done now?