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Toyota used their own engine ECU, not BMW’s. The turbo is Toyota’s. They also spent R&D dollars going through and improving upon the weak or failure prone parts in BMW’s engine. They just saved tremendously by not investing hundreds of millions of dollars designing their own new I-6 engine that would only ever be used in one of their models.
IMO this is closer to the truth of what's going on vs the hyperbole being tossed around. With the other scenerios about a pure Toyota/Lexus inline six, Toyota would have had to make a very conscious decision 10 years ago to develope a family of inline six engines used across a range of cars/SUVs.
I find it interesting how MB went back to the inline engine. But that's due to the fact that the Germans have moved down to turbo fours and so adding two cylinders to a four isn't that much more costly. Having both inline and V designs is another matter and an expensive one at that. There might have been a Supra Super Six if Toyota had stuck with its inline heritage But then again, they're not in the business of pleasing a relatively small market for the Supra. This is an esoteric model. Toyota watched the MKIV decline in sales and that was when it already had a much better leveraged position with drivetrain costs/development. It would be a huge costly risk in today's world to do that.
Toyota tested the BMW sourced parts used on this car well beyond what BMW engineers were used to, raising their eyebrows. That should suggest it’s far more than a rebadge job. Toyota wanted an I-6 and a customized platform for JUST this model alone but they didn’t have either in their stable. The Z4 may share the platform with the Supra but it is a new platform they co-developed together from the ground up.
Yes, it was mentioned in the article about how this was all done. Seems like they had a lot more to do with it than what is being tossed out by some of the people who are upset at Toyota over this particular car. But since no one on this thread has driven this car and even tested it against a rival car in the segment, there's no way to know what's really going to happen. Are people cross shopping M2s and this car? Or is that an argument being proposed only by the posters here and the MKIV forums?
You said a full loaded M2 with all options tops out at $64,500. Whether you think those options are worth it or not doesn't matter. Some people want them. You're not getting an M2 Comp for 64K.
Your right its $60k.
You just built it online - why you still arguing about price?
You put a sunroof which is not even offered on a Supra and will kill resale on any M2.
M2 also has an ///M engine that is TwinTurbo and has proper cooling. That alone is worth the $5-10k difference.
Oh.... but Yamaha IS involved Just not with the regular 335hp I-6 Supras. They’re involved with tuning the GRMN models that are using the 380hp B58 as a basis... with a CGI iron block... and a strong ZF 6-speed manual.
A 0-60 of 4.1 seconds from the launch Supras with the ZF 8HP autos is pretty damn good actually. Compare that to the stock 0-60 of 5.1 seconds from the old A80 TT 6-speed Supras.
The launch Supra A90 is NOT going to be the most impressive A90. But this one isn’t a bad car at all.
Right now, at the onset, the main issue is that they don’t have the manual transmission ready for the model year one Supra GR’s, let alone the GRMN’s.
For me, that omission alone, until it is corrected, is enough to make an excellent BMW M2 Competition 6MT much more attractive. Which is a shame but as rare as manuals are getting today I’d not consider an automatic in a sports car no matter how superior it’s supposed to be.
Once Toyota corrects this with a 6-speed manual on the Base models on up to the highest performance trim, I’ll consider it totally worth it. They will, but for now it’s auto-only.
I believed all these rumors about iron block etc and Really had my hopes up.
This is a detuned Z4 coupe with fake vents and Toyota badge & dealer service.
This magical GRMN version will never come and if it does will be limited to 100 units!
i see comments like this a lot, but i think a tesla 3 could beat it... electric cars really are a game changer in terms of performance.
Electric and converted electrified cars are indeed a game changer and an inevitability.
But for the moment I cannot see comparing the horrendous scrunched egg slash computer mouse styling of a Tesla Model 3 which has a driver-UNcentric non-dash with only a hard mounted iPad to constantly take your eyes off the road for both speed and instrumentation and to control your stereo and HVAC.
Tesla’s postion is that you shouldn’t care about this and just buy their Autopilot option to let their Model 3 drive you.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
But then you have to drive a Tesla Model 3...
^^ Exactly. This. To each their own of course but the Model 3 and A90 Supra are totally different ideas of what a "good" car is. And I am personally all for great electric cars but the Model 3 is designed to take as much of the driver out of the equation as possible and let them know it.
The Supra A90, in terms of how the driver is engaged and treated, represents the exact opposite of Elon Musk’s philosophy on the role and value of a driver. The A90 is a car made to engage and reward the driver. And though it doesn’t have the beautiful interior of the A80 it does give the driver a proper instrument cluster unlike the Model 3.
I love retrofitted cars converted to EV using Tesla drive units and batteries though— Tesla’s EV driveline hardware is great... when shoehorned into an already great driver’s chassis : )
Make no mistake though: a performance hybrid A90 is being considered and Toyota is gradually shifting their portfolio to electric.
This is among the reasons why Toyota decided to work with another performance car automaker that still makes I-6 engines. They and every other automaker are diverting huge percentages of their R&D budgets to future hybrid and electric (and annoyingly self driving) platforms and they are spending less money solely on cars like the Supra.... at least as powered by pure internal combustion.
It’s a good thing we’re even getting an A90 even as a collaboration.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 01-14-19 at 07:54 PM.
Reason: typo corrections
a 10 inch wheelbase shrinkage from FT1 concept jacked up the proportions. Just look at that tacked on silly door vent that creates a mess of extra lines and gaps. yuck. pass
I would have paid $50k for something close to concept in size, but this is just a suped up FT86 at most.
If it was based on the LC it likely would have had more similar proportions to the concept and would have been sexy.
No body kit or lowering is going to give the new Supra the proportions and stance of that concept being based on a Z4 roadster, a good looking car was doomed once they decided to base it on the roadster, even a 4 series, 6 series would have looked better.
Funny thing, the same kind of comments came when the MKIV premiered : what's with the hideous wing? And the insect headlights? And only 320bhp....de ja Vu.
Hopefully more people dislike it, so I can pick mine up under MSRP (unlikely, I know). My Q60 will then be my DD and the Supra can be my weekend / track car...
From what I remember most liked the styling of the last Supra, some of the snooty Euro reviewers sneered at the wing and how big it was but I remember the reaction being mostly positive. I remember the first time I saw a last gen Supra turbo, white tt in 1994, the styling/look blew me away, NSX was the only Japanese car I thought was better looking.
I was hoping it would be around 380 HP as early rumors suggested. 332 HP is kind of disappointing. Even though, it will be ight around 3500 lbs test weight, but horsepower sells cars these days.
In 21 years the new Generation Supra gained a whopping 12hp. Pretty sad. The talk in 2000 when there where rumors of a new Supra/4000GT was it would have 375-400hp. Meanwhile the new NSX gained 283hp over the last gen, LC gained 167hp over the SC430, Infiniti Q60 coupe is better looking and has 400hp.
I believed all these rumors about iron block etc and Really had my hopes up.
This is a detuned Z4 coupe with fake vents and Toyota badge & dealer service.
This magical GRMN version will never come and if it does will be limited to 100 units!
The GRMN is not magic and it will be quite a few more than a paltry 100 units, just not as many as the mainstream Supra GR's and GR Sports (Euro/Japan 4cyl turbos). The only trouble will be the age old issue of dealers ruining it with not just annoying but excessively stupid markups. But here's hoping on that.
Say what you will about it but that version will surprise you a lot ; )
Look, given the asking price and volume of that model and the need to sell a lot more A90's that aren't just the ultra hardcore models... if you were an automaker wanting to at least make some business success for such a limited halo niche sportscar, which version would YOU release and emphasize first? If you want to sell the cars to the widest possible audience, probably you'd make all of the trim levels not suck but emphasize the extremely niche market top dog performance model once you have a wide audience for the A90 in general.
It's perhaps a forgotten fact but a lot of people also bought the non-turbo Supra MKIV's most of which came with open diffs and not just the 5-speed manual versions... there were a fair number of MKIV non-turbo automatics sold. Those looked the part but boy were/are they slow as hell and unimpressive in stock form. A decent amount of work is required to make an NA-T out of one or swap one to TT.
Now the base model MKV Supra is already a tuneable I-6 turbo. It's just missing the manual transmission at launch which is the only really stupid faux pas for THIS kind of car. But they'll correct that mistake before long. And they're not done releasing all of the performance trims for the A90. It's only been out for one day so far.
In 21 years the new Generation Supra gained a whopping 12hp. Pretty sad. The talk in 2000 when there where rumors of a new Supra/4000GT was it would have 375-400hp. Meanwhile the new NSX gained 283hp over the last gen, LC gained 167hp over the SC430, Infiniti Q60 coupe is better looking and has 400hp.
I don’t agree with that extreme characterization, but parts and service are certainly expensive out of warranty but they are for all high end brand
Yeah. Agreed. German parts and service are more expensive out of warranty. However, BMW isn't reliable. This isn't some fiction I'm making up - its real. BMW is known to crap out at over 50K miles. I know someone with a 135i that has oil leaks at a little over 60K miles; this is after the angel eyes went out, rear lights went out, door locks didn't work and power windows stopped working.
Majority of the German's reliability problem comes from electrical stuff.
Originally Posted by UDel
In 21 years the new Generation Supra gained a whopping 12hp. Pretty sad. The talk in 2000 when there where rumors of a new Supra/4000GT was it would have 375-400hp. Meanwhile the new NSX gained 283hp over the last gen, LC gained 167hp over the SC430, Infiniti Q60 coupe is better looking and has 400hp.
This is so true.
Basically, in 21 years, the Mark 5 has 12 more hp and worst reliability.
In 21 years the new Generation Supra gained a whopping 12hp. Pretty sad. The talk in 2000 when there where rumors of a new Supra/4000GT was it would have 375-400hp. Meanwhile the new NSX gained 283hp over the last gen, LC gained 167hp over the SC430, Infiniti Q60 coupe is better looking and has 400hp.
The AWD NSX is nothing like the original or the almost-but-not-produced RWD V10 model... and it starts $157,000
The LC500 is a great successor to the best luxurious and sporty aspects of the original SC400 series... but it starts at $92k and realistically runs you at least over $100k
The Infiniti Q60 Red Sport (400hp) is the only one of those that you mentioned that is in the same price ballpark at $54k+ MSRP. It looks great but is a much heavier luxury performance 2+2 coupe, not a dedicated track sports car like the A90. Power-wise you've got a point but the A90's "335hp" is underrated. More like 335whp. How else is it going to do 0-60 in 4.1 seconds if it has only 335 CRANK hp? The ZF 8HP transmission and gearing help a lot sure but it's not just those factors allowing it to reach that number.
Also, the A90 is actually designed for a manual transmission, though as yet unreleased. The Infiniti Q60 aka Skyline has absolutely no R&D for a manual transmission at all.
Furthermore, Toyota set this engine up with the full intention that owners would flash tune and otherwise modify it. That's a big reason they went to so much trouble addressing as many weak points in the B58 design as they could afford to. To what end on the GR Supras we'll have to see once people start getting into tuning them... but the Toyota main ECU's used are supposed to have already been used previously in some other Toyota or Lexus models-- it won't be that hard to crack them. Almost no one keeps a Supra MKIV engine stock and the MKV engine will be no exception.
01-14-19, 06:56 PM
Just not with the regular 335hp I-6 Supras. They’re involved with tuning the GRMN models that are using the 380hp B58 as a basis... with a CGI iron block... and a strong ZF 6-speed manual.
