SW17LS

Your expectations for the ES weren't realistic. It's a nice car, but as far as being an "upscale luxury car" it's basically a rebadged FWD Toyota Camry. It drives like it is what it is. It's a nice comfortable car to drive around, but it's nothing like a GS, LS or a CTS. Going into a high speed corner it behaves like what it is....a Toyota Camry.

The CTS has hard plastic on the lower b pillars, the seat bases and tracks are exposed, hard plastic around the door handles, upper console is hard shiny plastic, and overall the fit and finish is just not what you find in a GS, let alone a 5 Series or E Class which are yet a step above the GS, but worlds better than the CTS.

The interior of the CTS is nice, but it's not to the level of its competitors. I drove it as a formality but as soon as I sat in it I knew it wasn't for me.

I had a 2013 GS Luxury and had no issues with noise or vibration. Yes you have a driveline hump for the AWD, but that never impacted space for me. Engine is a little loud but that's by design, they have an intake sound generator. I would choose the GS currently over the CTS, but not the new 5 Series or the E Class.

Johnhav430

My buddy just test drove the ATS-V, and said it's the best handling car he's ever driven. I found that to be an odd statement. Even more odd was the asking price from the dealership, bordering on absurd. It was used, and they wanted 60k.

I"ve had Camry rentals and they don't handle very well, so maybe this is a subjective thing. The 3rd gen LS430 rides excellently, but imho handles poorly. I drive one at least 7 days every 2 working weeks, so although it's still subjective, I feel I am knowledgeable. Others say it handles much better with the sport suspension. I've not driven one, but I feel shocks and bushings and sway bars can only do so much. The XTS we had was awd, and I would say it handled poorly.

mmarshall

In other words, it was the ultimate Lexus. The brand, of course, was founded on (and made its name on) comfort, refinement, fit/finish, and reliability.

SW17LS

I wouldn't go that far Mike. Having had the LS400, LS430 and LS460, the 430 is probably the best riding by a hair, as in the softest riding in a straight line, but overall IMHO the least satisfying to drive because it does handle the most bargelike out of all of them. The LS400 felt lighter and less encumbered, and the LS460 is the best handler out of all of them while retaining probably 90% of the LS430s ride. On the highway the 460 feels a lot more planted and enjoyable. Those highway drives I mentioned, have taken that trip twice now in the LS460 and had done so many many times in the LS400 and LS430, and the least confidence inspiring car was the LS430. Those back and forth left to right curves at 80 MPH, only LS I felt get a little unsettled and required me to come off the cruise somewhat from 75-80 was the 430.

That trip also can include a drive over the mountain on old Route 60 through Rupert and Rainelle. When I was a kid that's how you had to go because the freeway didn't exist up to where we were going. Have driven all those cars on that road too, which is a double yellow lined road that climbs about 2,800 feet and then comes back down about 1,500 feet. The LS430 was truly terrible to drive on that road. I did it once and never took it that way again. The LS400 was better and the 460 better yet. My GS350 in Sport + mode was awesome. Overall I would stick to the highway in any LS.

Love the LS460, miss the LS400 in ways but I don't miss the LS430 at all. There's more to a great ride than just being compliant, I'm all for that but if the car is a chore to drive in a curvy environment it negates a lot of that enjoyment.

I would say the "ultimate Lexus" is the 98-00 LS400. Not as glitzy inside as the 430 or 400, not as classically good looking as the LS460, but faultless quality everywhere, faultless solid build, creamy silent ride, effortless to drive in basically any circumstance.

Johnhav430

When I first test drove this car, summer 2005, I honestly said to myself, this is the car you want when you're stuck in traffic. I had no plans of ever getting one, I went to the Lexus event at Belmont Raceway, because I knew they were bringing a 2006 BMW 330i to the event. When I became an owner of a 2006 LS430 last Oct., I just couldn't put my finger on what was so lacking in the handling (again agreed, handling is not comfort, comfort is not lacking, it's about as good as it gets!)....then I found it online. .73g on the skidpad!!

edit: just had a laugh in my mind--how many LS owners, drive their cars in a circle, trying to see at what point it loses it? Maybe none?

mmarshall

Yeah, I wasn't necessarily being literal. I was more or less referring to the LS line in general, though the 430 was probably the most perfect representation of the old James Sloyan "Mr. Lexus" ads.


Since you are from WV, you probably know what both Routes 50 and 33 can be like across the state. Both are like snakes....50 is especially bad over Cheat and Laurel Mountains east of Clarksburg, and, well east of there, up and down the Allegheny Front. I haven't tried 60 yet.....too far south, as I used to go across the northern part of the state to Ohio.


No arguments on the quality-reliability front. One of my neighbors (since moved) had a '99 with 200K+ miles on it...still running reasonably reliably. I had to help him break into it one day when he locked his keys in it....without a Slim Jim, that was a job. The door assembly was built like a tank.

Johnhav430

totally agree....I actually like the shape even though it's dated, and I do "like" the .26 cd whether it's meaningful or not, just that in theory they designed the 3rd gen to cut through the wind. When I first operated the windshield wipers, I was like say WHAT???!!! The last time I saw a pivot arm like that was on my 1970 LeMans Sport. And it was not perpendicular to the ground (later I discovered it needs to be such to not make a slapping sound at the bottom edge). I rarely punch it, but when I have it was surprising, some of those annoying Focus and Civics may or may not have been surprised. Dunno what it is about the LS430, when stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, it seems to take the edge out of the situation, even with the dated NAV screen and controls....

mmarshall

Do you still have that old LeMans Sport? It could be a real classic if well-cared for or restored.

LexBob2

Two weeks ago we returned from a road trip to NC and drove through WV, with a stop in Charleston at the Capital Market. We had lunch at SOHO (good salads and brick oven pizza). If you like to drive, WV is a great and scenic state. We had our A6 which was at home on the mountain roads.

SW17LS

Eh, I don't know. If you think "what is "a Lexus" supposed to be, I think you look to what car they invested the most developing (outside the LFA), and what did they invest the most time developing...its the LS400. The LS400 was not a "floaty" car, it had a fairly firm ride, but very controlled, very damped and VERY refined and polished. You felt the road, but nothing had any edge on it, everything is damped and muted. The LS430 on the other hand was floatier, more like a Buick or an old Lincoln or something. The LS460 in my experience is more similar to the LS400, which I think is overall a "better" ride.

As an example. The LS400 was unflappable, it was almost like you could run over anything, and it would never jar you (you knew you ran over something, but it never was a problem) or unsettle the car in any way. No mater how big a bump, pothole, nasty grainy section of broken highway, it was there but distant and totally controlled. The LS430 would float over road imperfections and erase them from your consciousness, so you could run over something and never know you did. The tradeoff was cornering, that terrible skidpad rating being an example of that, and a somewhat floaty, disconnected uneasy feeling at highway speeds when you had to do something other than go straight that the LS400 didn't have and the LS460 doesn't have.

The LS460 is mostly the same was as the LS400 in that you feel whats underneath you but its all very polished, refined and damped. However, sometimes on the biggest sharpest of road irregularities or potholes or whatever, it comes through enough to make you grit your teeth, which is why I would say the LS400 rode slightly better. I think thats largely a function of wheel sizes, the LS400 had 60 series 225 width tires and the LS460 has 50 series 235 width tires. LS400 has 3/4" more sidewall, low pressures (29) makes a difference.

So I would say the LS460 is a better example of a "classic Lexus" since its more similar to the LS400.

Technology is the answer here though. If you drive say an S550 or even that XC90 I drove the other day, you can feel the air suspension pushing back the body roll. You can have that great straight line ride without compromising highway stability or cornering flatness.

60 is a good drive. Lots of neat things to stop and see, Hawks Nest, Chimney Corner, the Mystery Hole (don't ask lol), Cathedral falls, Fayetteville (my hometown) and the New River Gorge. If you go through to Hinton you'll find the most incredible Dairy Queen you've ever seen. Its on the river, and has a dining room with big glass windows looking out over the river. Southern WV is a lot more enjoyable than the northern part of the state IMHO.

Yep, that skidpad number tells the story. LS460 and LS400 are/were .81, so that shows you how dramatically different the grip and handling is of the LS430.

I love that wiper!

Oh yeah! Great drives, A6 is a great car for that too.

Johnhav430

I thought the LS430 has a fairly sophisticated suspension, especially the rear, so I was surprised at the low skidpad number lol

No way the 460 has that pivot arm wiper, right?! I adjusted it so it even tilted a little more to the left/driver's side, but found it slapped when it reached the bottom...I really fine tuned it and found it does need for the tip to tilt ever so slightly to the pass side to avoid slapping...

Johnhav430

My uncle loves his A6's. One he got for free, a '98 Quattro about 4 years ago, and he has a '02 FWD he bought with front end damage. The '98 needed a water pump and the owner got irritated and just gave him the car! lol (He managed a shop at the time) Still drives it daily today. Although he cheaped out on the headlights, one of the xenons went and it wasn't just the bulb, so he replaced them with eBay halogens...

SW17LS

It does, but its really softly sprung. The 400 and 460 are more firmly sprung. You feel that in the body roll, the 430 has a lot more lean and roll in the corners, more pitch and dive when braking, etc. Its interesting that the skidpad numbers of the 400 and 460 are identical, I didn't know that until I looked it up when I posted that...but it makes total sense to me having driven all three cars extensively.

It does! Same sort of pivot arm as the 400 and 430 do.