Toys4RJill

The new Cruze, and Opel Astra are off the D2XX platform. I believe the platform was engineered by Opel. There has to be some sort of developmental cost sharing, the executives who run GM cannot be that dumb to have to two different small car line ups.

Seems to me that Buick is more interested in selling cars that are designed and made in China.

Toys4RJill

Are you referring to Opel in Europe? Everything I have read is that Opel is perceived as an average brand in Europe.

Aron9000

I'd actually argue that it costs more to design a smaller car than a larger one. If it doesn't cost more to design a small car, it sure is A LOT more challenging. Keep in mind that you still have to meet crash standards while keeping weight in check so it gets good fuel economy. Now on something like a full size truck, well fuel economy isn't as important, keeping the weight in check isn't as important, and crash standards are a lot easier to meet with a large vehicle.

With consumers constantly demanding the latest tech, a nice driving experience, good power, improved safety with better crash structures and more airbags, quiet/smooth ride, low operating costs, reliability/durability to 200k+ miles, its damn hard to make a good small car and keep your costs in line. People expect a lot more out of a small/inexpensive car than in the past, the engineering costs have to be pretty steep, then the profit margins are paper thin. Gone are the days of cars like the Geo Metro, nobody will buy an unsafe, stripped out econobox anymore just to save a buck.

Toys4RJill

You make some good points, however all of what I have put in bold above applies to all cars does it not? Car manufactures should be good enough to find ways to keep the costs down. I would entertain the idea that a smaller car is more challenging to design however in the case of Toyota, the current Corolla for example is made all over the place in various locations, this brings Toyota some serious economies of scale to help bring down the costs and thus make it less challenging to design. You don't agree?

Aron9000

Toyota has all kinds of different variants of the Corolla nameplate sold all over the world, its not the same car in every market. Some of the ways Toyota keeps their cost in line for the Corolla in the US market is to cheap out on mechanical components. Drum brakes are cheaper than discs, a twist beam rear axle is cheaper than independent suspension, the current Corolla uses the same engine that debuted in the 2009 Corolla,15" steel wheels with smaller tires are cheaper, etc, etc, etc.

Since most Corolla drivers don't really care how their car drives, this formula works. For those that do care about how their car drives, Honda sells the IMO superior Civic, Mazda has the telepathically handling 3, Ford has an absolute gem in the Fiesta ST, Kia has a 200hp turbocharged hamster mobile! (seriously, the Soul trim levels are base, +, and !, ! being the turbo model)

I know Toyota makes a ton of $$$$ off the Corolla because its cheap to produce. All those other cars, with more sophisticated suspensions, turbo motors, and great driving dynamics(R&D costs $$$) are a bit more expensive, but not noticeably so if you can do without leather, radar cruise control, blind spot monitoring, etc, etc, etc. I kind of wonder what the profit margin is on a vastly superior small car is vs one that is rather ho-hum and $2-3k cheaper like the Corolla or Sentra.

mmarshall

If it ain't broke..........

So? I wish more cars, nowadays, had smaller wheels....and the tall-profile tires that go with them. I'm getting tired of sport-underpinnings and rubber-band tires even on luxury cars.

Perhaps, but drums actually make better emergency brakes then discs do. In fact, many disc-brake-equipped cars use a small single-drum on the rear, inboard of the rear discs, as the parking-brake. Drums also don't warp and shimmy after they get too hot and overheat like steel (non-ceramic) rotors do. The downside, of course, is that drums can expand and pedal-fade with use, and they don't shed off water like discs....get them wet, and you have to dry them out before they get effective again.

It also makes for a much simpler and cheaper wheel-alignment.


I'm not saying that simpler, cheaper designs are always better, but they are often done for more reasons than simple cost-cutting. They can often be beneficial....and help hold down the cost of repairs/replacement and insurance.

Aron9000

Which is the whole point of the Corolla. Basic transportation from point A to point B that costs as little to own as possible. I'd also argue that more sophisticated cars like the Mazda 3 and Honda Civic also have great track records of reliability/durability along with great resale value.

Anyways, I think we are getting a bit off point as this thread is about Opel. If you think the small car market in the USA is cut-throat, its even more so in Europe. I also think expectations for the cars themselves are much higher in Europe, as small cars sell for more $$$ That's in addition to car ownership being way more expensive in Europe with safety inspections, taxes, and higher fuel costs. Owning a new car in Europe, even a small one with a tiny engine, is a luxury many cannot afford, thus expectations are higher IMO Which gets back to my point of it being hard to turn a profit on small cars.

mmarshall

I currently own a car that is mostly an Opel (Astra) except for a GM-designed drivetrain and additional Buick sound insulation. But, except for that, it is a rebadged Astra sedan. I can honestly say (and that's my objective word as an auto reviewer, not just trying to impress people) that, so far, at age 5, it has been one of the best vehicles that have ever owned, although, given the choice, I would have done a few things differently on it in the tire and engine department..... taller-profiles and a small N/A V6 instead of a four. But this car has been like a block of granite, using solid materials in its construction....all I've had to do, repair-wise, is get some tire-punctures fixed. Yes, it adds weight, it's heavy for a car it's size, and uses some gas (best I've done on the highway is low 30s, and I average 20-22 in town). and Consumer Reports verifies a much-better-than-average reliability record..the best in the Buick line-up, and one of the best at GM.

So...the point? The point is that I don't see how GM can sell this car with a base price in the low-mid 20s (I paid 25K for mine, with a mildly-uplevel package) and still make a good profit....but that's not because of the physical size of the car. That's because they charge a comparably low price for a car that uses excellent materials and comes with a fair amount of standard equipment and a LOT of sound insulation.

MattyG

It's official. PSA group has bought the Opel and Vauxhall divisions for $2.3B. The deal closes at the end of the year. Opel was apparently just on the cusp of being profitable again but hadn't made money in 18 years. GM says they want to focus on other markets and didn't see any point in investing heavily in Europe for small returns.

The Opel engineering operation in Germany also heads over to PSA group as part of the deal. And politics and regulatory concerns might have been factors.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...ll-opel-to-psa

mmarshall

Come on. That's B.S. Opel-based GM products can be built just as easily here in the U.S. as they are in Europe. My own Verano, an Opel-Astra-rebadge, was built at the Orion assembly plant in Michgan.

Aron9000

^ I think the real reason GM sold Opel is that they view the European car market as stagnant at best, possibly retracting in the future. Can't make $$$$ if there isn't the demand for new cars. Things like Brexit and the unsustainable debt of some countries(Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, etc) makes for some unpredictable economic situations in the future.

Sulu

GM Europe has lost money for close to 20 years now; it is not smart for other business units in a company to continually have to subsidize another business unit like that. The money-losing business unit has to be re-structured, closed or sold off.

The problem is that Europe is over-supplied but no automaker has the guts to close factories. By selling to the PSA Groupe, GM cleans up its house but merely shifts the problem to partially French government-owned PSA. PSA has promised not to close factories but we will see what really happens the next time PSA hits the financial wall again.