superdenso

Both vehicles pulling 7000 lbs and that 5.7 will struggle to wind up 5000 rpm to give you the torque that the 4.5 will have at 1600 rpm. In the US we have gas station every 50 miles or less. In some countries the refill stations are a bit further apart. This notion came to me while watching a safari video. All the safety trucks were diesel cruisers. Man would I like to get my hands on a diesel GX, LX or even an FJ. At this rate I would take a LC just to get the 4.5dTT.

http://www.motoring.com.au/lexus-lx-scores-v8-diesel-54646/[/QUOTE]

MattyG

It's always romantic to think that somehow Americans, or by extension Canadians should drive Toyota's diesels from some remote country far away from the EPA or any regulatory agency. This is not realistic or even smart. Toyota already knows this.

The problem is that fuels are rated according to their refinery grades and their local use. Diesel and kerosene are really low grade fuels. Some diesel fuels are more refined to get rid of the sulfur content. This is a good thing. Would you like lead-based paint on your local kids playground because it looks shiny and clean all the time? People realized that a long time ago.

Toyota knows that the percentage of Land Cruiser and LX drivers who would even remotely buy a diesel in Suburbia-mow-your-lawn is limited to former UN bureaucrats and "Disney jungle safari types". I'll take a nice 90's era Land Cruiser with its V8 any day.

Personal eg. a former acquintence had a GM 2500 diesel. For all his money saved on fuel, he spent a fortune on fixing that danged engine. It was terrible. Noisy, loud and pretty much useless. Ask any Ford owner about their diesel. Ford has gone with Eco-boost for a reason.

You'll never certify a 50-state Land Cruiser diesel in America today.

superdenso

The 4.5d exists on nearly every continent. So there is no dream or fantasy or R&D. Further, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Volkswagen sell their adblue SUVs and cars to US families everyday. The 4.5d is an adblue unit and by the co2 numbers is cleaner than the 5.7. Side note: the top range Audi A8 is available in a diesel and the cruiser is not wow

*this thread was to get a little dialogue going/u nvr kno who may read this stuff

https://www.dubicars.com/2016-lexus-lx-450-diesel-62984.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-audi-a8l-tdi-diesel-test-review

Toys4RJill

Very well said.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

I'd buy a used 1993-1997 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ80 with the amazing 1FZ-FE 4.5L inline-six engine that happens to get laughably abysmal MPG numbers.

But other than that it's huge compared to older Land Cruisers and has no non-leather option. I find the $80k+ USA-spec new Land Cruiser utterly laughable when it has no turbo diesel engine option. Is it supposed to outpace a Mustang or something? It's a big box on wheels. I expect more utility and half-acceptable fuel economy from it rather than outright speed.

I could argue the same for the 4-Runner lineup and the Tacoma and Tundra. I'm happy that one of those offer a small gas V6 model with a stick shift but... where's the four cylinder turbodiesel option? And the FJ Cruiser... really? No diesel?

I recently spotted a Toyota Hilux parked in my neighborhood that had come over from Mexico. It was a single cab, notably a bit smaller than a Tacoma and it had a diesel engine with a manual transmission. But Americans shouldn't have such things, heaven forbid.

Jeep has only now wised up to releasing a turbodiesel Wrangler model that might have livable fuel economy. What took them so long? To be fair I am curious as to how their four-cylinder turbo gas engine will do in the Wrangler but anything is better than the Pentastar V6 lump it's has had for years.

I feel this is a complaint that is particularly glaring when we look at the Wrangler which is a personal off-road vehicle that people actually try to live with every day. Again... is it supposed to win races or be a livable and capable utilitarian everyday personal vehicle that can better use torque off-road?

Most of the world gets diesel engine options in utility vehicles and indeed today the emissions regulations are becoming more stringent worldwide. Automakers selling vehicles in America have squandered a lot of opportunity to sell some diesels here. And someone a few posts back very rightly noted that some models that even offer a diesel engine (such as the Chevy Colorado) force customers to buy a loaded model just to get it.

The current Chevy Colorado turbodiesel is one of only a couple of "small" pickups (read: not actually small) that make sense to me.

A good friend of mine wanted a nice capable SUV he could live with every day. He researched Toyota FJ's, Wranglers, Land Cruisers, 4-Runners, Land Rover Discovery's, older USA-spec Land Rover Defenders... you name it new and old. He obviously didn't expect an off-roader to give the fuel economy of a Prius but he wanted something decent comparable to what the rest of the world gets to choose from.

He ended up importing an 80's diesel Mercedes G-Wagen because it met his criteria. He pays a price in driving something older but a gas-guzzling new-ish USA-spec SUV wouldn't do and neither would a pickup truck or a small Jetta Sportwagen TDI.

People out there do want these things but if they aren't offered for sale new at any price point then people will either give up or in rare cases find something to import or retrofit a diesel engine into something.

Beyond the dearth of diesel non-luxury SUV's in the United States I will also segue briefly to address another glaring void: other than one bodystyle of the Jeep Wrangler there are no two-door SUV's. None. Even the current model Wrangler is actually SMALLER in most dimensions than the cheaper 4-door only Fiat-Chrysler-Jeep Renegade.

Due to all the new emission regulations that will kick in for the USA and EU and Asia in only a few short years the ultimate solution will likely be tough variants of gas-electric hybrid engines which can offer diesel-like torque but also run on Atkinson-Cycle combustion when under light loads. But if something along those lines is the solution in place of increasingly difficult-to-certify diesel... then currently... where is it? Why are the *only* current options in the USA V6 and V8 gas engines with rather lousy fuel economy? That's fine if it's not a daily use vehicle but for those who actually want to use such vehicles daily it makes no sense.

I'm fine with muscle cars and sports cars having somewhat lousy fuel economy. That's an expected thing with those kinds of vehicles. But utility vehicles should at least have optional engines that give borderline acceptable fuel economy. Currently diesel is that technology but who can say for how much longer.

superdenso

Am I trying to outrun a Honda Accord with some SRT Jeep; what is that? No I'm not trying to make a SUV take on 350z's. So let me effortlessly travel 1,000 miles on a tank of gas with four people and luggage with a 6,000 lbs camper bolted to it. Try to compare a 5.7v8 to the 4.5v8 in that scenario. Kahnbb6 you mention hybrids; to bring the wow factor even higher give me a diesel hybrid on the order of the new s-class bluetec hybrid. Right now it's the BMW x5 or an MB Suv or VW/Audi suv...cmon Toyota get in the game! At this point I'll take a GX with the 4.5dv8, give us something.

coolsaber

Not to be rude, but the argument about "why cant we have this when the whole word has it already" is only good when a business, which is to make money, has a good business case. I`ll give you another example of this, if you look at how many people clamor the big 3 german luxury makers for wagon. Reviewers, readers etc all claim the wagon is the perfect thing to buy and if they brought over a wagon, people would buy them in 2s. Fast forward post launch, and the market adoption is **** poor, and now the mfg has to dump tanker loads of incentives just for the showroom to even utter the words "wagon".

Same thing with diesel is what I see happening. Plenty of folk post "Just take my money," then when it comes time to actually "take my money" buyers will say, IDK remember saying that or MEH!

Plus, you have to ask yourself do see someone who cares alot about numbers, resale, hybrid, reliability, and "vault-like" nature as brand attributes ever thinking of taking up a clattery diesel.

I reckon taco or tundra. Lexus, at least for the good distant future will remain gasoline or hybrid.

MattyG

I certainly would consider a diesel Land Cruiser if I was in the market for one. Brother in law owned one of those 1970's era 60 series. But the problem is that there are issues to consider about how Toyota would market and sell such a beast in the U.S. It's diesel engine is a marvel but it's not known for being exactly quiet (lots of clatter apparently at idle). It would be a limited market.

I agree that the Germans have done a lot to mainstream diesels in America but some of those you mention are really high end vehicles with a matching price tag and the usual reliability issues. For Toyota to enter that segment automatically means it would have to become a Lexus after it figured out all the certification hurdles which means using adblue/urea injection.

On the other hand you already have that rugged tough machine and it's got a 5.7 silky smooth quiet V8.

It's a nice idea and in concept could be done for sure, but I wonder - where is the market for a bladder busting 900 mile cruiser?

coolsaber

when gas is cheap, your bladder is happy :P

Aron9000

I can agree with your sentiment, why does a big utility vehicle or truck automatically have to get really bad mpg. The current Land Cruiser/LX is probably THE WORST offender of bad gas mileage on the market right now. For comparison, 2016 model year SUV's:

Escalade- AWD, 6.2 V8, 420hp/460ft lb torque, 15/21mpg
Range Rover LWB AWD 5.0 Supercharged V8 550hp/562lb-ft torque!!, 14/19mpg
Range Rover 3.0 Diesel turbo AWD V6, 254hp/440lb ft torque, 22/29mpg
Chevrolet Suburban, 5.3 V8, part time 4wd, 355hp/383lb-ft torque 15/22
Benz GL63 AMG, AWD, 5.5 twin turbo V8, 550hp/560lb-ft torque, 13/17
Benz GL350 Diesel, turbo, AWD, 3.0 V6 240hp/455lb-ft torque, 19/26
Land Cruiser, 5.7 V8, 381hp/401 lb-ft torque, 13/18
Land Cruiser Diesel, not sold here, 4.5 twin turbo diesel V8, 4 valve head, 268hp/479lb-ft torque, 21mpg city/28 highway

Anyways, my point is Toyota is behind the curve on both power and fuel efficiency with their big 5.7 V8 in the Land Cruiser, LX, Sequoia, and Tundra. All the other major luxury makers of big SUV's give you a diesel option, with WAY better fuel economy and no reduction in towing capacity with a very healthy torque rating as well. Granted the diesels aren't as fast as the gas models if you floor it or are wanting to pass some ******* on the right doing 65mph in the fast lane, but the newer diesels aren't slow either. But in part throttle, normal driving, you aren't going to notice much if any difference between the diesel and gas option.

Also, just because can afford a big $100,000 SUV, I think its nonsense that you should expect lousy *** fuel economy with it, especially if you're driving a Land Cruiser that is WAY slower than a Benz GL63 AMG or Supercharged Range Rover that gets similar gas mileage. I know if I spent 80k+ on a new SUV, I'd expect it to get better gas mileage than a 1986 Ford Bronco. Part of buying a luxury vehicle is having your cake and eating it too. I don't think it is unreasonable to want a powerhouse engine that can tow a huge load in a big SUV that gets decent fuel economy. Toyota could certify its diesel engine for sale here in the USA, there is enough of a profit margin on an 86k Land Cruiser to make it an option. As for diesels in 22-35k Tacoma pickups, I don't think Toyota could make money on that, so they'd have to charge you $3-5k for a diesel option because its so expensive to meet air pollution regulations in the USA.

Sulu

Just because a diesel engine is available "on nearly every continent" does not mean that it will sell in North America (USA and Canada), which has the world's most restrictive emissions regulations. Carbon dioxide (CO2) in the exhaust is only one small and relatively insignificant factor in overall gasoline and diesel engines emissions; CO2 is directly proportional to fuel consumption, so the less fuel consumed, the lower the CO2 emissions. That is why the European Union has favoured diesel engines over gasoline engines.

But there are other, more toxic pollutants, namely particulate matter (black soot, which causes cancer) and nitrogen oxide (NOx, a key constituent of the brown smog that floats above major cities) emissions that diesel engines spew much more than gasoline engines. EU emissions regulations have, until very recently, with the enforcement of Euro 6 emissions regulations, also favoured diesel engines by not limiting PM and NOx emissions that much. But Euro 6, as restrictive as it is, still does not match current American and Canadian emissions limits.

American emissions regulations, led by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and the EPA, have not favoured diesel engines, enforcing the same emissions limits (including PM and NOx) for both diesel and gasoline engines. It is because of these much stricter emissions regulations that have resulted in the cleanup of the air floating above such major North American cities such as LA.

The Europeans have favoured diesel engines but I think that you will see that reversing, and it is starting to happen, led by major European cities such as Paris and London, and the Chinese cities such as Beijing, which have terrible air fed by dirty diesel engines.

Diesel engines are more expensive, and with the complicated emissions controls such as SCR, which need the Adblue urea liquid, even more so. And these new diesel engines will not run if they run out of Adblue (Toyota's new diesel engines will not restart if there is no Adblue). This will make it harder to sell these new diesel engines to North American consumers, who are very price sensitive and not known to religiously maintain their vehicles.

I believe that we will start to see the death of diesel engines in consumer vehicles (including cars and SUVs), with diesels limited to commercial vehicles (large trucks and heavy duty pickups sold to commercial enterprises), because of these concerns with diesel emissions and the ongoing improvement in gasoline and gasoline-electric hybrid engines.

superdenso

The dirty diesels are pre-2000. The new diesels are closing in on their gas siblings. And when you consider a diesel can cover more land spewing near identical pollutants you have to begin to let go of the diesel knowledge you grew up with. Further, diesels engines last longer than gas motors. So the gas cars fill up the landfills long before the diesels. The Toyota 4.5d meets Euro 4 and is called a green car. Modern diesels retain a slightly detectable tick which is a far cry from the old sounds they emitted. Consider that tick the sound of less fill-ups and more change for the kids. Further, Russia has a 2016 LX450d. Some people want a go anywhere, never stopping for gas, luxury, powerhouse, suv that can tow nearly 8ooo lbs. Stop thinking that the US doesn't have it because we're too good, think more of what will happen to the Denali and Escalade sales figures.


http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...y-mean-for-you
https://lexusenthusiast.com/2015/10/...diesel-engine/
https://www.reference.com/vehicles/a...77eaee176d3ad5
http://www.motherearthnews.com/green...z1204zmat.aspx

coolsaber

Then vote with your wallet..? Us forumers want alot, and know a fare bit. However I`m pretty sure some bean counter somewhere has shared the same wants to a board about bringing diesel, and the data outthere just doesnt support a business plan. Sad but true.

Diesel clatter can be reduced but not removed completely. Back in the X5d the clatter was reduced (not enough) and certainly not removed. The audi q7 was the silent one of the group relative. New cars are also pushing hard for more insulation. The XC90 i4 is a perfect example. That thing is a 4 cylinder, but the high pitch noises are muted well. Tons of insulation from the hood to the firewall

Sulu

Meeting Euro 4 may be considered a "green car" in Europe but it is nowhere close to EPA (much less CARB) emissions standards. You obviously do not know Euro and EPA emissions standards.

geko29

I can't speak for superdenso, but I certainly do. Chose my 335d almost solely based on the powerplant, even though it meant giving up my "requirement" of a 3-pedal manual. Wife's RX is coming due for replacement next year, and top contenders are the JGC Diesel, X5d, GLE or GL/GLS bluetec, and if we can find one, the Q7 TDI. We'll still look at the Pilot/MDX and both variants of the Highlander, but compression ignition is a huge selling point.